Developing and Cultivating Leadership with Penn Lacrosse Coach Karin Corbett

[00:00:00] John Boruk: It's the podcast that provides a different perspective to use sports, how to create a better environment with better parents, better coaches, and really improving the game for everybody involved. Always keep up with raising a champion by subscribing to us. Wherever you listen, you can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, and wherever you listen, it's much appreciated.

So just do that, subscribe. Whenever we have new episodes, you will be notified. All right, my guest today is a 23. Year veteran head coaching, the University of Pennsylvania Lady Quakers as doing so, in running the lacrosse program, she has 11 Ivy League championships, 13 straight trips to the NCAA tournament including three trips to the lacrosse Final Four. In doing so, she was also a member of the United States Women's Lacrosse Team from 1993 to 1996, a graduate of William and Mary. She also captain both the field hockey and lacrosse teams. As a senior, we welcome to raising a champion, [00:01:00] Karin Corbett, head coach of Penn’s women's lacrosse team.

Hi Karen. Hi John. 

[00:01:04] Karin Corbett: How you doing? I'm great. How are you doing?   

[00:01:05] John Boruk: I'm very good. Lacrosse season obviously starts up next year, but it's a busy time for you. This is a busy time. And we were just talking off air about how September has become in about a three week period, just almost chaotic. Is that a good way to describe it?

Yes, very chaotic. What is that because it's the open season when the open recruiting year when contacts can be made, and it's almost it almost sounds like it's a free for all. 

[00:01:33] Karin Corbett: Yeah. I'm gonna speak from division one division three, and to have a little bit different rules.

We created a rule several years ago to try to slow down recruiting. And so we put some rules on us. The NCAA followed up with men's women's lacrosse that we could not call recruits until September 1st of their junior year. That's crazy that has slowed down because really they've only finished two years of high school.

But it enables us to watch them throughout the summer [00:02:00] and then narrow our list down and then decide who we're gonna call on September 1st. Now there are a lot of Division one schools and so people have different timelines, but for us it's been within a month. That we wrap up our class. So we just finished the 2024 class at an Ivy League school.

They commit to the admissions process versus a verbal commitment where they say, I'm committed to school X. They have to say, I've committed to the admissions process at Penn or, Princeton or wherever. So we did real well this year and we ended up being able to be done kind of the end of September, which is crazy.

So some schools don't move that fast, but it is, that's the kind of top level, division one are pretty much done when the fall ends. 

[00:02:43] John Boruk: So we are talking about the recruiting class that the kids that you're gonna have in the program starting 2024. 2025, because these are juniors in high school. 

[00:02:53] Karin Corbett: They're juniors in high school.

[00:02:53] John Boruk: Yes. Which, so this is all completely different than if someone's familiar with national Letter of Intent Day, where you [00:03:00] sign your letter of intent, and that's the school that you're, you've chosen. For the following fall. This is the where this process has already been sped up to where you're now looking at kids that still have another year in high school.

So much so there. I, isn't there a little bit of a fear that something can change, that these kids could be leaped over and, and that the kid that you think that you're recruiting as a junior may not be the same type or same quality of kid when they're a freshman. 

[00:03:27] Karin Corbett: Exactly. My 23, so my, now the seniors in high school did their letter of intent.

The Ivy League does not have that. But they all will get their admissions letter. In December, we do something called the likely letter. But yes, you do have that. Some kids are late bloomers and so they might really develop their junior spring. So sometimes we leave a spot for a kid that maybe people didn't see.

or at some of these academic schools, some kids don't get in. So that has happened where we've gotten a kid late in the process summer before she's going into her senior year because she hasn't gotten in [00:04:00] somewhere else. Luckily for us, we've been able to, I've done it for 23 years. I can look at a transcript and feel pretty good about that.

They can do the work. At Penn I'm basically charged with finding a good lacrosse player, a kid with great character, a kid who can do the work, who has some honors in AP classes with good grades and. The testing is optional right now. That could change, but that becomes a part of it where we have to give them a kind of a realm of what they could get in the test, the potential of what they could get in the test.

[00:04:27] John Boruk: But that's the challenge of being a head coach at an Ivy League school where academics is top priority is yes, you're looking for good athletes, but they also have to be at the upper echelon of their academics. How do you balance that? How do you find the athlete who can qualify in both those areas, considering you have such an outstanding track record, perennial Top 20 program mentioned 11, 11 straight trips to, to the NCAA tournament that you had.

So you're looking for a. A high level [00:05:00] caliber player, but they also have to be very academically polished.   

[00:05:03] Karin Corbett: Yes, exactly. And then you have the financial piece because we have no athletic scholarship. So it is a three, three-rung process for us. Whereas other schools can just say, we really want this kid.

And academics doesn't matter. They have the money. They can give the offer. The student athlete for us, we have to see whether they, they qualify for need based or their families are, can pay it. And then we have to see academically how they are now. They don't need to have, all aps and straight A's.

We have to balance that out. So our class has to be balanced academically in that, you might have a goalkeeper who, that's an important position for us. She might have some A's and. Some honors classes here and there, but she's not, the valedictorian. However, supporting someone like that, I then need to find somebody who balances her out, who might be that, 1480 SAT, and straight A's.

So you just have to balance your class out, and that's a challenge. 

[00:05:52] John Boruk: In other words, if you get a really good athlete, you gotta, you got a little give when it comes to grades, [00:06:00] yes. If you've got an athlete that's Not bad. Pretty good. Not maybe top tier. She better be really good academically.

[00:06:06] Karin Corbett:. Exactly, and I think what we would always is hard is trying to recruit potential.

Finding those kids that are good athletes and that we feel have still a huge upside. as when they come to us and as you, you alluded to some kids, do they get better in those last two years? I try to tell them that you can't be just resting on your laurels. We expect you to develop in then let in the last two years of high school so that you know you're ready to compete for a high level nnc, n c competitive team.

[00:06:36] John Boruk: So with that in mind, do you become a little bit more entrenched in some of these high school programs or clubs knowing that they're in good hands and that for that senior year, I know that their level of play is going to increase. It's not gonna remain stagnant or go down. I would think that from college coaches, they start to lock in on [00:07:00] who those good high school programs, good club sports or whatever that you're recruiting from. 

[00:07:04] Karin Corbett: Yeah, definitely. You wanna, you get to build the relationships with some high school coaches who, are tough on their kids, develop their kids. Oh they're under this coach.

We know that they're going to keep getting better. Some of the high school coaches will call me and say, what do you really hope that this player will work on? How do you want, how do you wanna see her come in? And then the club coaches again trying to find. Kids who are part of a club that they do coach.

Because I think we want these kids to have the skills where we are not starting from scratch when they come to us. 

[00:07:33] John Boruk: We are talking with Karen Corbett. She is the head coach at the University of Penn Women's lacrosse team. She has had tremendous amount of success in a quarter century. 2008 was one of the best when you were, I think, ranked number one, went to the NCAA finals.

What still a after all these years, inspires you and keeps you going. 

[00:07:53] Karin Corbett: You know, every year is new. It's a new group of athletes, and you have to keep building that chemistry, that culture, you never can rest [00:08:00] on it, that it's okay that you've arrived. I think it's you always, when you came to Penn, it was that climb.

Oh, it's so hard to get there. You gotta get the athletes to believe that you can do it. And then once you get there, you're now, you're recruiting a different type of athlete, but you also need to always go back. I think why we've been successful is finding kids that have a really great work ethic and that they want to be challenged and they want to be the best player they can be.

So it's finding those kids that will fit well in your program, but then trying to mesh the 33, 32 girls together to be the best team. But to also create a family and to have standards and pushing these kids farther than they ever thought they could challenging them. They challenge me every day.

It has changed a lot. I would say the kids have changed a lot, or maybe not the kids, but the parents. And so that's been a challenge. It's changed so much from when I first got there, so it's always a challenge. I think Covid, the Ivy League, we got hit hard, we lost two seasons and we were the only league in the country that didn't figure out how to play in division one.

Which was very [00:09:00] frustrating, and so taking that break just renewed how much I do love this and missed coaching and missed being with the players. So it's just every year with new kids there's new challenges, so it's never the same, which is fun. And I think also throughout the year, summer is recruiting.

You're watching kids all the time. September is you're trying to get your kids, going again, but then you're heavy in recruiting and you're selling pen and you're showcasing what Penn is and what our program is and trying to get those kids to, to decide. October, we're playing games that don't count, but it's against putting us out on the field.

And then they're about to start exams and we come back in January and then we're full go. And then you guys say, you get it cranked up. Yeah. And that's the season, and that's the fun part.   

[00:09:40] John Boruk: So let's get into today's athlete, and as I said, you've been, you've been at Penn almost 25 years, but your resume of coaching goes back even farther than that.

We're talking like, I think, what, 30 years? Oh yeah. How has the athlete changed and how has. When you look at the way that they play the [00:10:00] game some things they do better and some things they don't. Yeah, 

[00:10:03] Karin Corbett: I would say, I think kids are kids. I think what changes is parenting and youth sports.

When we grew up, we used to play in the neighborhood and it wasn't club sports or our parents weren't taking us places. We had to run whatever we wanted to run. And I think I also am the director of Penn Athletics, Wharton Leadership Academy, and I find leadership kids coming in with a lot less leadership than they used to.

And I think that has a lot to do with youth sports because we had to run the pro. If we wanted to have a whiffle game ball game, I would call up on the house phone and have to say, Mr. Smith is Jimmy there. We'd like to have a whiffle ball game. And he has the bases. And so we're meeting at the park and Jimmy needs to bring, Jimmy would get on the phone, Jimmy gotta bring the bases.

We'd get there, we'd pick teams. Jimmy would forget the bases. We'd have to send Jimmy home, hold him accountable. He didn't bring the bases. He'd get on his bike, he'd go home. We'd pick teams, kids. Pick last. It is what it is. And then we would play, and then we would fight about who was safe, who was [00:11:00] ho, who was out.

And we had to deal with all of those things. And I think now we've taken that away from kids. And so there's always an adult telling them how to line up, where to go. Parents make sure they have their cleats and their bag and they have everything. And we're robbing kids of that opportunity to step up and lead, to step up and hold people accountable to deal.

Peers not picking you that argument over you, out you safe. And so I find that they come into us with a lot. Leadership or wanting to hold kids accountable because become a mean word. And I feel when you hold kids accountable, it's because you really believe that they're capable. And so it's trying to get over that hump.

I think the best teams are peer led and I think that gets harder and harder these days. And the parents have done a lot for their kids and I get it and it's all comes from a place of wanting them to have better or the best, but at times, They don't, aren't, don't have the ability to step [00:12:00] up and do what's needed.

They want the coaches to do that. They want the coaches to be the quote unquote bad guys or the ones who are disciplinarians or hold you accountable.

[00:12:07] John Boruk: You said something though that was very key in that phrase is that the parents want them to have the best they do. The parents want it. Yes. So if the parents want it, it's really hard, I believe to and cultivate an environment of leadership. Yeah. When, to me it's always been the players have to drive it. The parents are the accompanying, they're funding it, they're driving you to practice, they're doing those things. But once you take care of that, . That's from my standpoint, where you now go from the driver's seat to the backseat.

Mm-hmm. And now let them do that and let them figure it out. We used to, kids in New York back in the day, were riding the subway at the age of eight, nine, and 10. We allowed them to figure all of that out. Yeah. Go outside and play for three or four hours. Go, come up with games.

You, you divide up the teams. Yep, exactly. You decide who's gonna be on what team, and then you construct your team and how you [00:13:00] want to do that. , all that imaginative stuff is gone. 

[00:13:04] Karin Corbett: Yes. It's like wiped away. It is. And I think they're really paying the price for that. And I've realized that as juniors and seniors we're asking a lot of them without, they don't have the experience to do it.

They have the tools, they don't. And so that's where we're trying to help with the Leadership Academy is trying to help them with that. But it is a challenge. And so I think that parents are so involved, and again, they mean well. But also I find that some kids. As I, I wrote an article once about, you need to ask your kids more questions.

They've gotta wanna play. Division one is like a job. And I think sometimes these kids, it's all they've done and their parents have put so much time, they put so much money, and I think they're afraid to walk away sometimes because of disappointing their parents. They hear their parents in the recruiting conversations.

My child looking at Yale, my child's looking at UNC, my child looking at Penn. And sometimes they don't wanna do it anymore. They've been doing it for so long and if they don't have the passion, they don't wanna wake up at 6:00 AM when it's freezing cold and go to practice. [00:14:00] And, but yet, I don't think they wanna let their parents down.

And sometimes I just say, when your kids call home because she's upset just ask questions. And sometimes, do you still wanna do this? And before they go onto the college route, do you really wanna. Because it is a job and it's wonderful if you're into it and you have the passion for it because you learn so many life lessons and you make wonderful memories and friends.

But I have some kids that I've had throughout the years that I don't know how much they really love it, and so they're not gonna keep working hard. And I think sometimes when kids get to college, they think, I've made it, it should be harder. It's harder when you're in college.  

[00:14:34] John Boruk:. Oh, and that goes back to this and I, I just talked about this quote with somebody and I, Kara Lawson, I'm not sure if you fam you're familiar with her, she's a college basketball coach went to the University of Tennessee and her phrase was that we're always looking and she was actually addressing her team. But our environment, our society is, if I can just make it to the hard part, I'll get to the easy stuff. And if just do this and it's gonna get easier, if I can just get over this big [00:15:00] hump guess what she says.

Embrace the hard. It's never gonna get easy. Yeah, okay. It's just gonna continue to get hard. Don't ever sell yourself on the fact that you just gotta get over this one hard hump and then you can coast. Because once you start, the mentality of coasting is when you become complacent, you get behind.

So it's learning to deal with the hard. Not overcoming the hard, so you can then rely in fact that it gets easy. It's because once you deal that once, I think you learn to deal with the hard Yeah. And accept that everything's hard. How do I now do, how do I deal it? How do I really structure my life?

 In the hard is when life becomes easier, but you're still dealing with the hard part.  

[00:15:40] Karin Corbett: Yeah, and I think that the hard parts when you fail, when you've trip and fall and you have to get yourself up, I feel like the easy things don't gain you confidence. The things that you have to work at is where your confidence grows.

And so when you overcome something hard, it should inspire you to try something even harder. And I think that's where [00:16:00] sometimes these kids don't want that. They want the easier thing. And I think that's today's society. Like how can I get it the quickest? What's the easiest way to do it?

And it's, I have found my best teams are the kids who just, they, the game is easy because they have worked so hard and the practices are hard and they want that and they love that. They love the competition where the offense is against the defense and the hard runs are a challenge to them. But when they overcome them, when they make those runs, they're so much more confident and they don't get easier than runs.

But they mentally are like, I can do this. Yes. And that is where I think sometimes we rob our children of those challenging moments where you have to let them fail, you have to let them trip. You have to let them deal with sadness and upset because they didn't do well, because they've gotta pick themselves up.

And when. Don't, and you do it all the time. They hit college where it's much harder. And are, do they have the tools to know that they can push through or do they just take, they just bail. 

[00:16:59] John Boruk: So when you [00:17:00] talk, like you did this past September, and you're talking to these potential recruits who are essentially juniors in high school maybe they're, they haven't got to that senior level where they're asked to be leaders. Do you have a line of questions that you ask? Do you, it's almost like a little test that you. And to work to, to determine how they're going to how they're going to blend into that. And that you're into your program and how they're gonna become a division one athlete.

So in other words, where, what their, where their leadership skills and qualities. Just in that couple conversations you have with them.  

[00:17:31] Karin Corbett: Yeah, I think it's even more than that. I don't wanna give you the questions cuz then, No I understand what I'm saying. I'm kidding.

But I think that sometimes I trying to find how, what is their why do they play lacrosse is a very great question to even ask my players. because it comes out, really, their passion for the game comes out in that answer or their lack of passion, their reason for doing it sometimes becomes very clear that this kid just is going to put [00:18:00] everything on the line, right?

They're grateful for this opportunity. They can't wait to keep getting better. What challenges them is the competitiveness. They're just so competitive. They can't, it's what drives them. They love challenging themselves. They love working hard, as opposed. I my best. . Okay. Was that can all get you through, like of course they're gonna be your best friends.

We work on chemistry, but you have to have an inner drive yourself. To be a good college athlete, you have to have it, and you have to have a standard and you have to have a passion that brings you back every day. The leadership thing is more about, can you lead yourself? Are you somebody who you know, takes responsibility for their things they don't do well?

And I think that's where parents, when their kids are young, that. Make them do that. They forget their lunch. You gotta figure it out, kid. I'm not driving it to school. They're not gonna forget their lunch again, they're not gonna. Yeah. But if we do it, we bail them out and then they think it's not the worst if I don't do X, Y, and Z, because I've never really felt the consequences of anything really bad.

So I don't know. [00:19:00] But when they do it, and sometimes it's not even that bad, a consequence, but they step up to the plate, they take ownership. They end up becoming better leaders because they understand what is expected of them. They can't take an easy road. They're gonna have their feet to the fire.

They're gonna have consequences, and therefore they think why isn't everybody doing this? They need to do this. If I'm doing this is my standard and now I'm going to put this standard. on the people younger than me. And I think that's been the challenge is people have been fixers for them.

They need to fix their own life. They need to fix, get their way out of things and deal with the little things that a seven year old has to deal with at times. 

[00:19:37] John Boruk: And the start of something like that can be so very simple. For instance, they have a game or practice at nine or 10 in the morning.

Let them set their alarm clock. Yep. Let them get up and make their bed. Let them get up and make their breakfast. There's three things right there.  

[00:19:50] Karin Corbett: Pack. Forget their shoes. They have the wrong uniform. If the coach wants to sit 'em, then the coach sits 'em. If the coach says you're gonna look completely different than the rest of the team, but get on the [00:20:00] field.

you gotta do it. Because then the kid's gonna remember, I don't want that to happen again. So I just think it's those little things that as parents, they seem little, having your child order pizza, having your child on a phone, and just having to be responsible. My, I know my son, he forgot his library.

He thought he lost his library book. And I, he was six and I walked him every day school, you have to talk to the library and will you email? No, I'm not gonna email. I didn't lose the book. You lost the book. And this is when we went over what to say, and he went up and. He was ready on Friday.

I'm gonna talk to the librarian, and I said, you're either gonna, if you lost it, you're gonna have to pay for it. You have allowance, that's what's gonna happen. And he went and he ended up not losing the book, but that those, it's painful and the, and your child doesn't want it. But in the end of the day, you teach them responsibility.

Then they end up expecting a lot more of themselves. They know they're so much more capable. If every step that they take, their confidence grows. And I see that a lot with parenting and kids that I have recruited and coached. 

[00:20:58] John Boruk: Have you? Wow. . Yeah. So [00:21:00] as somebody who you went to William and Mary you captain, both the lacrosse and the field hockey teams. You were not just a, you were first team all- conference player of the year and lacrosse as a senior. So how did you develop, how did you, where did you become that leader because you got the resume and that's something that you can impart that wisdom, but.

How did it grow with you? How did it develop within yourself?  

[00:21:21] Karin Corbett: It definitely I would say a lot with my parents. I had three older sisters, two played division one field hockey and lacrosse who were older than me. So I knew that I could do it because I'd seen them do it. But my, I worked for, my parents ran a swimming tennis club.

I worked for my parents from when I was 15 on, we got evaluated every summer. Just a lot of responsibility that, that I had to have and those life lessons that they didn't let me get away with things when I was mowing the lawn at age 10. We just had to do work. It was part of being a part of the family.

You gotta carry your weight and I made lunches for everybody when I wasn't working and then working at the club, again, you get evaluated. At 15 and sometimes you're gonna get a [00:22:00] good evaluation. And so what are you gonna do about that? Are you gonna get better or are you gonna feel sorry for yourself?

And so I was able to do that at a very young age that, it's up to me to be successful. It's up to me to work hard. And I just always, I wanted to be an Olympic field hockey player from when I was really little. And so I just, I was a kid who ran all summer long and I worked really hard and wanted to be the best.

When I went out there, I always wanted to try to be the best player out there, and I definitely wanted to be the hardest worker. It was just something I prided myself on. And so effort to me is beats talent. and I knew that there were kids a lot more talented than me, but I could always control my effort.

And that's, it's one thing that you can control. 

[00:22:39] John Boruk: Yep, for sure. Effort, attitude. Those are, they're all free and they're all things you can control, which is something that, I love about sports. Yeah. Is that you can control that. How has lacrosse changed over the years? In terms of the game itself, is it fashion now? Are the athletes faster? Obviously the equipment's better. , but does the game fast? And [00:23:00] I, I see this with hockey too, and really a lot of sports. The, there's doesn't, there's, it seems as if.

individual skills are just, when I watch a basketball game or I watch this, is that the basics, if you wanna call it the basics have been under-emphasized and that is so frustrating. Yeah. Because it makes it hard for me to watch a game when you know that just some basic skill sets are lacking.

[00:23:21] Karin Corbett: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that the game is so much faster. We. We have restraining lines, we have a shot clock. It's much more physical than it was, and so the game has changed. But what's interesting is I think we're the only sport that high school has completely different rules than us.

And so it's very hard when they come to college because you're trying to teach a different game. And so it's a big learning curve for kids if going from high school to college. So every college, they're faster, bigger, stronger. But our game has a lot more things we have to teach because they just don't allow you to play a lot of defense in high school.

Anytime you touch somebody, it's a foul. In college, it's very physical, so you have to [00:24:00] reteach defense. And you have to reteach offense. But when you're talking about basics, fundamentals, yes. I think these kids play too much. I think that they don’t. If you play, we play 12 on 12. And if you're a defender, you might never touch the ball.

So how is that helping you? We're, my mom was a, taught me in fifth grade. She was a coach and we learned fundamentals in fifth and sixth and seventh. It was fundamentals. We didn't play games till seventh and eighth grade and all we did two days a week was stick work and shooting and picking up a ground ball and learning how to cradle.

And I think there are kids that play from six years old that cannot catch with their left hand. Not even, they can't even catch on their left side of their body. And I don't, it's like having tennis, playing tennis with no backhand. You can't do that. So you've got, I just feel that youth coaches, and I think this is driven from parents, they wanna see their kids play.

I'd rather see my kid just do drill work. and kids will have fun if you make it relays. If you make it a competition. They don't need to play the sport at 6, 7, 8 years old. They just don't. [00:25:00] And so if they can learn the fundamentals, they, the game will be more fun for them because they're better. What happens at youth sports is that the bigger, faster, stronger kid is better, and then the kids who tend to work on their skills on their.

Pass them because there's no kind of standard for, maybe if you had a club, you have to be able to be proficient out of. If I'm pass you 20 balls with your right to your right hand, you gotta catch 18 of them to move up to this level. You have to do it with your left hand, like just more proficiency.

In fundamentals, then you can teach the tactical stuff where then they can learn about three BK and five B four s and all of these things. But if you can't catch and throw, it doesn't matter what offense you run. 

[00:25:41] John Boruk: That's why I say they can't do anything in the off season. Sometimes parents and this is across the board in any sport, I wanna play in these other tournaments.

I, is this, oh, this is got the top 10 teams gotta play in that tournament. That tournament. I'm telling you it, none of that matters if you don't have the necessary skills in [00:26:00] hockey. If my son isn't an elite skater, it doesn't matter what teams we're playing on. It doesn't matter if we win some tournament in Chicago or Detroit.

Nope. None of that matters. That's why I like to spend the off season because they are playing on these games and do doing some individual stuff. And you're right, I think that is so key. And so if you want to start to leapfrog some of these other kids in your, in your class within your league and.

To me that seems to be the best way of doing it. 

[00:26:27] Karin Corbett: And it gave them confidence because again, if you're not quicker or faster, then you gotta, if you have skills will beat that almost always. And so I just think that we're not teaching fundamentals as much and it's become a, it's become profitable.

They're a commodity. Kids in sports and unfortunately, and then you see injuries. There were no, I think when I went to college, there was one kid with an ACL. High school kids here in their ACL, left and right, and that's because they're playing too much and they're not working on their skills.

They're just playing all the time. And then they're playing another sport on top of [00:27:00] the sport that they're in that season. So they'll play soccer, but then they'll play lacrosse is their favorite. So then they're playing lacrosse, and college coaches, again, we are at fault as well.

We watch kids play in November when we don't really need to be watching sophomores play in November. We don't really need to do that, but we do. And yet they might be playing in soccer season or field hockey season, and then we want 'em, basketball's wonderful. For lacrosse it's the one that I think carries over the most is basketball because it's picks, it's off ball defense, it's screens and all of that.

And the defense is similar. So I love basketball players, but now they're playing lacrosse all year, so you get less of that. But every sport can help another sport. and field hockey also help lacrosse. They help each other and I just think these kids aren't playing as many sports and then they have overuse injuries.

So the amount of injuries is increased too, and it's just sad to see these kids. Hurting themselves so much. 

[00:27:53] John Boruk: Yeah. And that's good because, so you are a big believer in being a multi-sport athlete. Definitely not being sports [00:28:00] specific. Yes. And for the reasons that you just stated, what you can pick up.

Yeah. The defensive positioning switches. All that sort of footwork. 

[00:28:09] Karin Corbett: Yeah, footwork is fabulous. Soccer. Kids who play soccer who have good footwork, that's great Field hockey, a flick is like a side arm riser in lacrosse. So there's a lot that can pertain. And it's interesting the more you, I used to be able to ask kids, oh, did you play this sport?

And they're like, yeah, I'm okay. This is, this skill is like that. Now you're, I can't find kids a lot of times who are. more than lacrosse. 

[00:28:29] John Boruk: Really? That's hard. It's tough. It's hard to find. It's becoming more rare.  

[00:28:31] Karin Corbett:. It's harder and harder because again, it's too much on their body. Because if you play basketball and then you have all these programs for lacrosse and a lot of kids then will stop playing basketball because they wanna train.

Do not train you, do not need to train, you need to play basketball. It'll help you with game sense. If you're gonna train, get on the wall, get a better stick. You don't need a trainer for. Just watch a video, do some moves. You can, they can Google so much. Now, they do not need to pay for a trainer [00:29:00] really, to do this stuff.

Okay? And what it shows too, is the kid that is willing to go out in the backyard and do it, versus their parents paying for a trainer, the kid who goes out there and does it, is the kid who's intrinsically motivated, who's gonna do well in college. As simple as that. You say, just go in the backyard.   

[00:29:16] John Boruk: Just they have a practice on shooting and you can use a wall.

[00:29:17] Karin Corbett: They have a rebound. Okay, buy your kid a rebounder. Don't hire a coach like they can Google. They can look at it. You can videotape 'em if they wanna work on their form. But let your child show that initiative because that's what's gonna carry them if they don't want to, if they're fighting you on it, they probably don't really have the passion to play in college.

[00:29:34] John Boruk: I call it getting sucked into the vortex of sports parenting. Yeah. Where you see one family's is got the big setup down in the basement and they've got all this then I gotta do this and I'm falling behind . Oh wait, you got a personal trainer? Oh. And he sees him three times a week.

Oh. I gotta get my kid on that. What's his name? And it is. It is so much keeping up with the Joneses. Yeah. You almost just need to take a step back and. Let's do a reassessment here. 

[00:29:56] Karin Corbett: And I think what it is hard is not easy. [00:30:00] You fall into it because you're, oh my God, is my child falling behind?

But rest is important. Recovery is important, and I think we forget about that. And also the downtime where people always just ask me, what sport do you like better? And I'd say, whichever one I'm playing. , I could not imagine playing lacrosse all year and not playing field hockey and not playing basketball.

I loved it. I loved whatever sport I was in and I think that I had the passion when I was in that season. That was what I wanted to go out in the backyard and work on. And I think that, you can do all this for your kids, but if they don't want to do it on their downtime or if they're only doing cuz their friends are doing it, that's not enough to drive them to play in college.

And if that's what you're doing this for as a parent because you want them to play in college, you can. Get them burned out of it. And that's why I've had kids in the past who were soccer players and soccer burn. They got burned outta soccer and then they started lacrosse because they thought this is just so much fun.

And they were good athletes and they like, I'm gonna put my time into this. And they were phenomenal lacrosse players. [00:31:00] So I think you cannot, if they don't have the passion, it's not worth the money. 

[00:31:05] John Boruk: Absolutely. No. Yeah. But otherwise, what are you putting your passion towards? Yeah. So let's say.

Parents have the money and they have the time and the commitment maybe where should all of that go towards? Should it go towards recruiting events or camps or be better equipment? I don't know. Yeah. How would you do it? How would you structure it?

[00:31:21] Karin Corbett: So in my, in a perfect world, what I would say is, let your child play a lot of sports when they're young and don't get on these travel teams when they're young.

I think when you say young, I'm like fourth, fifth, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade. I don't, playing your whole summer, planning your whole summer around lacrosse tournaments when they're in eighth grade, seventh grade is to me, Ridiculous because I think that there's so many more years ahead of them to play and why not?

Let them enjoy summer? Let them and play tennis. Let them swim, let them, do those kind of things. Be a kid, go on vacation, do community service, do something else because we don't watch you [00:32:00] until you're a ni, pretty much a 10th grader. So it's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of travel.

And again, how many years your kids still. That's the question. Every weekend at the heat of the 90 degrees going all these tournaments, I think it's tough for a kid to like to do that when they're 10 years old all the way through college, right? Through high school. So I would say that, but what's, what the challenge is that these clubs get you early.

and so they're like, if I'm on the A team, then I can probably still be on the A team. The number one team when they get to ninth grade. If you're good enough, you're gonna make the A team you just are. And if you're not, you're gonna be on the B team. And the B team is fine. Maybe your kids should not be aspiring to the highest D one, but there is a place for her to play if she wants to play.

But I think spending all of their middle school time doing these tournament. . I think it's more important if they just did skill work and they played more sports and they learned game sense from that and watch lacrosse go and see the level as well. You can go to a [00:33:00] college game, you can go, there's the pro league now you can watch that in the summer.

Have her love the game. She doesn't need to play it all the time. So I would say practices and then it's doing the tournaments are really important when you're in high. Because that's when we watch you play. So there's camps at the colleges that you might like. There are camps.

There's some camps that have a lot of colleges work the camps. So the colleges don't own the camps, but somebody comes in and a lot of colleges work those camps. So you get seen that way. And then obviously your club team. Travels and we go watch all these tournaments around the country. Pretty much east coast.

I would say the West Coast kids have to come here, but we do, I do a camp out in California. Like a lot of people will do camps out there and try to see kids that way. So it's being seen in high school is really what it is. We don't watch high school games much anymore. Okay. We go watch playoffs a little bit in June cuz lacrosse goes late.

We're recruiting such early kids that if the team is getting to playoffs, typically the sophomore, now she's maybe not playing because the team is too good. So sometimes you'll see a great sophomore in that spring, but [00:34:00] then we're watching them all summer. And then the juniors of the seniors are typically on the teams that are winning championships.

Correct. So we don't watch a lot of high school games anymore. . 

[00:34:07] John Boruk: Really? So when you construct your database of, I think you said 600. Yeah. Athletes, how do you go about putting that together then? Is, do you have assistant coaches who go out and scout or where how do you know who they are and what their skill level is?  

[00:34:20] Karin Corbett: Yeah, so we have a million emails come to us, . So every email that comes to us goes in our database and they get a letter anytime, an email, anytime that we have a clinic or a camp. . And so sometimes kids think they're being recruited through that, which is tough. You're not really being recruited until the club coach tells you that such school called you called about you wanted to ask about you.

But what I would say is that when we go to tournaments, we watch kids play, and from that we create lists. So I'm out, my assistants are out, and every tournament we go to, we're taking. Of kids and any kids that we notice we're putting in that database and getting information on them and seeing if they're interested.

And but kids email you now a ton [00:35:00] and now there's websites where you can immediately go and get their videos and all of their info. But it's, I'm, before a tournament I probably get 200 emails. Oof. At least. 

[00:35:11] John Boruk: Telling you, I don't even, I don't even know how that's a full-time job in itself. You almost need to hire an assistant just to answer the emails.  

[00:35:16] Karin Corbett: It's great. You can forward 'em to a database and you keep 'em that way. Okay. But I think what's hard is when parents think that their kids are being recruited, when you do get a, dear Susie, university of Pennsylvania, it's because you filled out a questionnaire. You're not, that doesn't mean that we're actively recruiting you.

It means now you're in our database and we can give you all of our camp and clinic stuff. And if you're really interested in a place, go to their camp. Go to their clinics. Make sure you get in front of them, whether it's a tournament, or go to these other camps that have, that you know that they're working at.

And that's your best way to be seen. And camps. I love camps. We get to work with them cuz there's some kids who look great out there and then you go to coach them and they really don't have much game sense or they actually don't wanna be coached. They don't want you to [00:36:00] tell them that they're not. And you're like, okay, that kid's not gonna go well here because we coach a lot camps are wonderful, you've got to show that interest as well that you're interested in that school. 

[00:36:08] John Boruk: Yeah. Is there are certain attributes that, let's just say that they are, an average in talent, but there's certain attributes that you look for and say, oh, he's got, or she's got this, and this.

I think I can take average and now make it exceptional. I can take it and make it a little bit better and separate them from the rest of the pack.  

[00:36:28] Karin Corbett: Yeah, obviously you're, the quick kid. The fast kid. Always catch your eye. The kid with a great stick catches your eye, kid with great vision.

Footwork is really big on defense. You wanna find kids who have quick feet. If the kid is not, doesn't have some of that, you're really trying to see your IQ because I've had kids who have been some of my best players that don't have any of those natural gifts, but what they do have is they learn, they anticipate really well.

They have great game since they read the play. And so it's trying to figure that out. While you're watching them play as well as at [00:37:00] camps like you, you teach them a new skill and they can pick it up or the concept up, or there's other kids that are real quick and got it all. And then you're trying to teach a concept and it is like talking to a wall.

There's nothing there. And you're like, okay, this kid's. Gonna be sitting on my bench and yet she's this athletic, this isn't good. So you're try, that's where you can see a lot at camp. Do they have game sense? Are they picking up what you're teaching them? Because if they can pick that up in a couple, camp sessions, you're like, this kid's got a lot of potential.

So you're looking at that as well. Yeah. So 

[00:37:29] John Boruk: you had, you said you had the camp in California? 

[00:37:32] Karin Corbett: Yeah, so I work, we, our staff, we go out to different, there's camps in California that we'll do, we've sometimes done camps in Texas and then we obviously run our own camps and then we will work camps in New Jersey, in Maryland, in New England.

So we'll work different camps like I'm going down both me and my sister, and b going down to Naples in Florida. There's two camps run by two different companies that we'll be at different sites in Naples. We do that in early January. So there's camps all over that we try to see. Kids from different areas.

 [00:38:00] John Boruk: Is the breakdown of your roster, does it mostly here on the East Coast? 

[00:38:04] Karin Corbett: Mostly East Coast. Okay. Just because I would say that the, what happens a lot is the kids who are from a different same area, they, a lot of times they go back home and then they coach. So they have the experience Long Island.

New York New Jersey Pennsylvania has used to be the top but not as strong. I would say. Then you got Connecticut and you got, Massachusetts and then there's Florida's growing like gangbusters because now there's four programs of women programs down in Florida. Atlanta now is having more kids, so it's great to see it grow and they're seeing kids from Texas and then California because USC.

And Stanford, and there's now more schools out there, so it's growing, which is fabulous. But I would say the bulk of my kids are really from Pa to Jersey. Maryland's always strong in lacrosse. Maryland, New York, Connecticut. I have a New Hampshire kid coming. I do have a Texas kid on my team.

So you're just trying to find them, the kids that'll fit best in your program. Yeah. 

[00:38:56] John Boruk: You talked about how parenting has also changed and you got into [00:39:00] a little bit about that when you were discussing leadership and what you should allow your kids to do, but. What advice would you give to parents now and I think that some parents are and I know this, I've been around plenty of youth sports are, if I had to use one word and it doesn't describe all of them, but they can be overbearing.

[00:39:17] Karin Corbett: Yes. And I do think that you can hurt your child in recruiting with that if you're on the sideline and you are acting just outta control or yelling at your kid a lot or coaching your kid a lot from the sidelines. As coaches, we look back and we try to figure out who your kid. and do we want that parent for four years?

And we also will ask club coaches about the parents because they can, coaches are getting fired because their child isn't. Playing or whatever, so you need to do some research on parents. And so I think that, 

[00:39:48] John Boruk: When did that start, by the way? The parental research?  

[00:39:50] Karin Corbett: Yeah. I would say, there were always some crazies back in the day, but I would say now, I would say probably in the last 10 years, it's just, they've, they're, and I get [00:40:00] it, they're, they just watch all the time.

They're very overly involved in it, and they want it to be a good way. But I think when they're over coaching, when they're yelling at the officials, when they're yelling at the other team, it's just, it's u it's club, it's not a big deal. And I just think that they, and then if they're in the office with me and they're talking all the time and they're not letting their child.

And it's also important to see how your daughter reacts to the parents and her. Is she respectful of her parents? I think that, I love to meet with the parents and the kid because I think it's really important to see that dynamic. And the overbearing parent, the parents who are all, talking all the time like.

We're recruiting your child and we wanna coach your child, and, but we also wanna have your child respect you and that you feel like you're working this together. think parents who, I'm happy for this opportunity and I want my daughter, this is her choice. Like it's her choice. It's her four years, right?

And we're here and we're gonna guide her and we're gonna talk with her, but at the end of the day, it's her choice. [00:41:00] Is important. I think that's really important to have, so it has changed it. They used to be real hands off and now, I think they're more sad when their kids graduate from college than the kids are because it's ending.

Yeah. And it's been such a big part of their life. And I get it. Cuz they start when they're six now, right? That they're going to, this is their weekend. 

[00:41:17] John Boruk: They make it. Family vacations are now tailored and centered and everything planned around that tournament in Florida, wherever these tournaments are. 

[00:41:24] Karin Corbett: Yeah. And they say, we are gonna play. I love that. No. You're not, you are not playing. But we have to autonomy tell them they can't be at the same hotel as us. It's a tough thing. They, and they mean they wanna be a part of all of their children, everything they do. But we also want their children to.

Experience this experience for themselves a little bit. Yeah. 

[00:41:43] John Boruk: My 11 year old corrects me on that. I said, Hey, we're playing the colonials this week. He goes, where? ? I'm like, no. Oh, that's right. I was like, you are, yeah, you are. I'm like, that, and that's, Hey I give him the, make him give him the decisions.

Whenever he decides that what team you wanna play on one year, I'm like, you're the one that's gotta play. You gotta go out there. Great. You got the one [00:42:00] that's, you're the one that has to be coached. You gotta go through everything. So I'll just support you. You of tell me what you wanna do. If you want my advice.

I'll give it to you, but Right. But we're talking with Karin Corbett university of Penn Women's lacrosse coach. So much success. What's missing? Is it the national championship? We know how hard it is and we know that obviously Ivy League schools are, almost you got one hand tied behind your back because you're, you can't just recruit the best player, you gotta have the academic element.

But what's missing from, from your resume right now? 

[00:42:28] Karin Corbett: I wouldn't say anything's I wouldn't say anything's missing. I think that, again, like I talked a little bit about. We had a tough year last year and I had two kids on the field that had played.

And that was really hard. And so I think for us it's, I came to Penn and they were one in 12 and I had to rebuild, I guess just build a culture and now I feel like. , I have to rebuild the culture because of what happened with Covid. And so that's the challenge ahead of me. Not looking that far.

It's more of, we've gotta get back to, we didn't go to the NCAAs last year. That was the first year we hadn't. And so we've got to get back to that. And [00:43:00] so again, creating new standards, creating new culture, getting these kids to understand what it actually takes, and then teaching them leadership because they were robbed of that.

They missed a couple years. Of playing lacrosse, of having leaders, of seeing good leaders and. It's a lot for them. And we're trying to develop leaders with kids who really missed two years of college, which is tough. So for me, I'm just looking straight ahead of every practice. How do we get better today?

How do we then prepare for the next game and hopefully, win an Ivy championship again and get back to the NCAAs and then, maybe someday we'll be back to the final four. 

[00:43:35] John Boruk: It's a fantastic sport. It's one of my favorite. I love it. The skill involved on both men's and the women's side, as you said, there's over 110 Division one school, so there's a lot of athletes and Yeah.

So few opportunities out there. But just a fantastic sport and Penn's a great place. Just a great, if you want to aspire to to play sports and athletics. Penn's a great start. So Karen, thank you so much. Thank you John, for coming to do this. I really appreciate it. We close our show as we [00:44:00] always do.

Our closing thought, our words of wisdom for this show when there's no consequence for poor work ethic and there's no reward for good work ethic than what you have. There's no groundwork for motivation, so keep that in mind. Thanks for listening to Raising a Champion, and hopefully you'll join us next time.