How Money and Mania Are Ruining Kids' Sports with Author Linda Flanagan

[00:00:00] John Boruk: All right. Hello to everybody out there and welcome to the podcast that breaks down every angle of youth sports and provides a little different perspective for those that have a kid in the game. If you're listening to us for the first time we're glad you're here if you're a returner to the show.

Thanks for giving us another try. Lot of good quality interviews that we have in the vault. Last week we spoke with Jill Castle regarding nutrition, how and when to feed your high performing athlete. If you haven't heard it, give it a try and then. If you can give us a review because your review will help us move up the charts and continue to grow this podcast.

I wanna start with a quote that I came across and where we are in youth sports as it pertains to. Money and the financial aspect and really the growth over the last 20 to 25 years. The fundamental flaw in American youth sports is we are sorting the weak from the strong well before kids grow into their bodies, their minds, and their interests.

By creating these travel teams at ever earlier ages. Were [00:01:00] pushing aside the late bloomer. We're pushing aside the kid from the lower income home that can't afford to use sports arms race, or doesn't have a second parent in the home to drive them to this endless array of practices and games, some of which are two counties.

Or even two states away. That is important because that leads me right into my guest on this particular episode. She's a parent of athletes. She's a former high school cross country coach, but now she spends a lot of her time interviewing like we're doing here and writing. In fact, she's the author of the book, Take Back the Game, how Money and Mania are Ruining Kids Sports and Why It Matters.

Linda Flanagan. Linda, thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:01:41] Linda Flanagan: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:43] John Boruk: John. Yeah, absolutely Linda. So tell us a little bit about yourself and really what inspired you to write about this particular topic as it pertains to youth sports. Yes. 

[00:01:55] Linda Flanagan: I have long been an athlete myself, so starting when I was [00:02:00] young, I played tennis and softball and I've been a runner beginning in high school roughly, and I continue to run for, so I've been running for decades. And so I care about sports. I think they're, they've done so much for me. They did as I was growing up, and they continue to in, even into my adulthood. And so I, I come to them with a very favorable perspective what I experienced then, however, both as the mother of three, one of whom was a good athlete and as a high school coach it really gave me pause about what I was seeing. So much of what I enjoyed about sports and what I continue to enjoy, which is the camaraderie, the shared work and shared suffering sometimes that you experience.

Working out with others and just the discipline I've integrated into my entire existence. All of these sort of intangibles about sports I think have been eroded by which [00:03:00] the quote, you just read of mine from the book of, from various factors. But that was money.

So I have these experiences that both, both an athlete and a mother of an athlete and a coach. And then also I've been a writer. So I've just been interested in how youth sports have changed and so how we got here and then what's the effect of that, and is there anything we can do about it?

[00:03:26] John Boruk: So let's get into that. Let's dive into it a little bit. When did this, the dynamic of youth sports really start to change from something that was more on the recreational side. It was just good for, to get my child out there, to get him some exercise to get him involved in a team. The importance of a team to where it then started to transfer over into, hey I've got to now take it as part of his future and more of a business standpoint because yeah. Be where now the parents try to spearhead the child's interest instead of [00:04:00] letting the child lead the way. 

[00:04:02] Linda Flanagan: Yeah. Really you're talking about the transition from sports being, child directed to adult directed and from being about fun and participation to being winning and what it can do for you, they've just become so serious. And I think that's the transition that I've been interested in exploring and what I look into in my book. And, it started really, the shift began in from what I gathered from my research began in about the seventies when we had a, a bad recession.

And there was a cut in public funding for parks and public facilities where kids could just go and play. Fast forward to the nineties and you had enforcement of Title IX increase the number of girls wanting to play sports. And I know Title IX was passed in 72, but it really started, enforcement started picking up in the nineties.

You have a lot more girls wanting to play, [00:05:00] but at the same time this shrinkage in public options. Private entities noticed that there was a demand and responded to this. And one of the most significant actors was Walt Disney World, which built its wide world. Complex. And you've probably done shows on it but. Complex just attracted, so many people and the Disney executives learned that parents will spend on their kids' sports teams. They might make sacrifices elsewhere, but if their child is playing some championship, they're gonna go and they're gonna fork over the money and spend a couple nights at the Disney hotels, which was the strategy by the way, of Disney at the time.

They recognized that this is important to, and then after the 9/11attacks tourism didn't slow at the Wide World of Sports complex. So that was like, Oooh, interesting. Municipalities picked up on this [00:06:00] and could see that if Disney can do this, why can't we build our sports, some sports complexes and also make some money?

So as a result, you've seen this incredible growth in the number of sports facilities, playing fields and open spaces and gyms all over the countries. There's now 10 times the number there were in when Disney. Began Yes. With the Wide World Sports complex. 

[00:06:24] John Boruk: So going back to what you said in regards to 9/11, what happened was, is obviously when the attacks took place for people who don't remember 20 years ago we hit a recession, hit a lull yeah, and with that, the market suffered, but essentially what you're saying was, is that parents still, it certainly wasn't going to hinder. Them putting their kids through high level sports. And yeah and so I'm trying while parents I, and I've seen it and I've come across it and you've come across it and you can share, I think some of the interviews that you've done that parents will spare.

No, no cost. To do this. Yes. At the same time, businesses have seen, [00:07:00] oh, okay parents aren't gonna spare a cost, then I need to provide this arena, or I need to provide the, this platform or this league or tournament for to make the money. They see the dollar signs and they want to capitalize on it.

And I like to know who, who's the culprit behind this whole thing of driving this into a business that is not has not become really healthy, for children, especially at a young age. And you're seeing it now with a lot of these tournaments. I'm, I see eight, nine, and 10 year olds Yeah.

Who are now like traveling every single weekend when there's completely no reason to do that. 

[00:07:35] Linda Flanagan: Yeah, no, it's not in kids' best interests and it's not in family's best interests, and my stock line, I tell fam parents is look, club teams, they're not, they're interested in developing a good team.

They are not. They don't care about your family, that's not their interest. And they're not terrible people. I also wanna point out this is the American system. You can [00:08:00] present these opportunities for people to buy, but it doesn't mean it's in your interest as parents to. Sign your kids up for activities that require travel when they're seven and eight years old all the time. Or specializing in one sport year round when they're in elementary school. And that is just, it is not in kids' best interest. 

[00:08:22] John Boruk: Yeah. And that's a big part of this podcast, and that's something that we highly promote. Being multi-sport athletes, playing as many things as you can. In fact, we, we had a physical therapist, Dr. John Herting, who was on a few weeks ago, and he talked about unspecialized play and the absence of that. Where kids just used to go out and climb on trees and just find ways to, use their limbs in, in, in very unstructured atmospheres. So that has declined.

[00:08:49] Linda Flanagan: Yeah, that's declined a lot. And since the pandemic, there was obviously during the pandemic when a lot of teams shut down. Schools couldn't necessarily hold practices. [00:09:00] There was this, hopeful sign where our kids were going out and playing and riding bikes and things. But now that's, since the pandemic is essentially over, that's retreated as well.

So we're back to kids playing an average of 16.6 hours of sports per week, mostly in an organized setting. 

[00:09:17] John Boruk: And it's the overuse. It's the over-training of some of these athletes. Getting into this a little bit more is there any science or is there any data or is there any facts that show that the more that, that they're involved in, let's say these high level teams and you're always chasing something, I gotta be on this team to go play in this tournament over in this country or this state that's three states away because they wanna see how does my kid at the age of 10, 12, 14 fare against the best in the country?

Is there any data to show that this is gonna make them a better.

[00:09:50] Linda Flanagan: No, to my knowledge, there is not what there is data to show that in certain sports in sportswear the, [00:10:00] you reach your peak level around puberty and these are just a handful of sports. Gymnastics. Skating, I think is another one, and I can't remember the third. It's very few in those sports.

If parents are determined, then they want their child to be in at the elite level. They're gonna have to start them young and specialize early. But in the vast majority of sports, it is not necessary. The research I've read about it suggests that they, the researchers put the language in such a way to get the point across, not, You don't need to do this in order to reach an elite level. Obviously some kids will reach an elite level by specializing early, but the research has indicated that you don't need to do that to reach the elite level. And if you want to preserve mental health and reduce the likelihood of injury, which we know [00:11:00] specialization causes, you are wiser to be a multi-sport athlete.

Coaches want high college coaches, they want multi-sport athletes. There's all kinds of reasons where why you shouldn't be, and the research suggests, that you can get there by not specializing. So it's a little bit of a backhanded way yeah of answering the question.   

[00:11:18] John Boruk: Yeah. And that's what I keep I readING is that some of these college coaches and the ones that we've actually had on this podcast say, I if I'm looking at two kids and one has been playing say lacrosse for the last seven years, and I got another kid who's been playing lacrosse, but I got a little bit of basketball here. They're also doing some track in this. I'm gonna take the one that's been doing, playing other sports. So who's pushing this sports specialization to this? Who is, who's informing parents to say, if you want your kid to be, on the track, to be on the US Women's national team or the men's national team, you gotta stick with this.

Who is selling? . 

[00:11:51] Linda Flanagan: My understanding is that parents are the ones who get their kids into sports, and it's the coaches who are encouraging them to ramp [00:12:00] up the intensity. And you're right. I've had that same question because if everybody knows this is dumb, that the better coaches want multi-sport athletes, not only because they're less likely to get hurt, but also because there's more upside, of that player if you've been playing one sport for 10.

By the time you get on a team, how much more upside do you have? That's another reason why coaches want multi-sport athletes. So where is it coming from? And I think that a part of it is the, that there can be this conflict with some high school coaches who are also club coaches. So some of them are, making money.

The off season by telling their kids on their school teams that they need to play on their club team in the summer. If you understand what I'm saying, like the high school coach is also a club coach and encourages these kids, or e expects them to participate in the off season.

So to, to make it like. , yeah. [00:13:00] as a, frankly, as a way to make money. And there, there can also be other motives, like they want them to stay sharp and all that. But part of it, part of the explanation for this is because the coaches have a vested interest in kids playing more. And you consider that?

 [00:13:22] John Boruk: No, you're right. And I, and this is where I feel like the exploitation comes into play here, is that they target certain kids that are really good kids then they're trying to fuel their program and at the same time, advance this program in an effort to draw more. Because in, in my particular sport, at least the one, watching hockey, parents chase.

You don't see them chase development, if you chase development really wins and losses to me is irrelevant. Yeah, of course you want 'em to win, but you want the kid to develop Yeah. Mentally, psychologically. Yeah. Physically. 

[00:13:56] Linda Flanagan: That should be, that's what sports are supposed to be for [00:14:00] in the end, so that they grow and become better people and can function as adults and, develop as athletes and people and we're a very competitive society. The way we have rankings of kids at very young of teams when they're very young and, championships when they're 10 years old or younger. I say 10, I'm sure it's a lot younger. I'm just afraid to look. Over the weekend I was at the Millrose Games in New York, just, this famous track meet with just incredible talent and it's very exciting.

But they had a race for 8-year-olds, and it was Bill, as the best eight year old in the world. , the winner was the best eight year old girl, the best eight year old boy. And that good for those kids. They're fast and good for them. But I, the idea that we should be encouraging this I the notion of champ for children, young kids. It's just to me, really misguided. 

[00:14:56] John Boruk: Just wait. I cuz I have some research I'm gonna share with you from a [00:15:00] Washington Post article about and as we get into NIL a little bit later in this program, how That's Yes. How that has, yes. You want to talk about unearthing something that's really scary.

We'll get into that, but I want, I wanna get more into your book and more into some of the people that you interviewed and the research that you did the national obsession of you sports, how it's also increased the risk and that associated with mental health problems. What have you seen from that end in terms of the kids?

Is it because that they're pushed too far because mentally they're the, they're really the fragility of the mental state. They're kids and they're still in that development stage. And I'm sure that you have seen that this repetitiveness of being pushed and pushed is certainly it's a toll that they can't.

 [00:15:45] Linda Flanagan: I discovered in my research, several authorities have spoken up about this. One is the National Athletic Trainers Association. The athletic trainers are the people who work with the athletes and they put out a statement in 2015, so eight [00:16:00] years ago, and it has only gotten worse rate, you.

Warning about the mental health of high school kids, high school athletes. They were concerned about the negative, the increase in negative emotional states, including sleeplessness, irritability, mood swings, and they attributed it to the higher stakes, the competitiveness, and the pressure on kids.

The same has, I also spoke to some sports psychologists about this, and they said much the same, that the professional consensus is that there are greater mental health problems among athletes than there used to be because of the higher stakes in effect that it just feels so important. Again, like reflecting back on my use and probably yours, where I cared about playing well and I wanted to win in the games I was in, but I also knew that it, the sun would rise the next day. I think many kids today [00:17:00] feel the stakes are so high that it's it, and the parents are spending a lot of money and putting a lot of time into their athletic careers.

They feel a great deal of pressure and, we've seen this, and of course there's a mental health crisis among the young in general, and sports ordinarily are protective of mental health. They reduce, regular movement and exercise. Wards off depression, it sports anxiety.

But we've taken it to such a level that it's had the reverse effect and you. There's so much to say about mental health and kids who play sports. One of course is that the more you as a young person devote yourself to a sport, and I know this as a runner, that when you get hurt, and of course many of these young athletes do because they're playing so much and they take it so seriously that when they get hurt, then their lives can fall apart because they've [00:18:00] closed off other sort of aspects of being a person and they're lost their identity. And it's very challenging for young people who get injured and, put on the shelf and they fall behind and they're separated from their friends and they feel terrible. And that's true at the college level as well.

But I think one of the issues here, I just came upon this statistic recently, is apparently the optimal number of hours to exercise in terms of mental health and for high school age is 14 hours a week. Okay, what two hours a day? And the average, and right now the average is 16.6 hours a day. You can be sure that it's a lot higher, and so with some kids, but that, you're already just on average exceeding that.

And of course, depression is exacerbated by sleeplessness. Many of these young people are exhausted. Yeah. They don't get enough sleep. They're scrambling to keep up with their schoolwork and all the other aspects of [00:19:00] being an adolescent, and then the sports just can be so crushing.

[00:19:04] John Boruk: Yeah. And that is, that's something that I see is that sometimes it, the extracurricular aspect takes them into, by the time it's six or seven o'clock at night, and then they have to rush home to, to try to get. To fuel their bodies. And then by the time that's out of the way, then they have to try to squeeze in homework.

And sometimes they wonder why can't if we're playing middle school or high school sports, why can't we have their practices start at 3, 3 30 and then they're done. At five o'clock, which I think would be reasonable, at least I remember from my time back in the, in the eighties.

Yeah. That we, it would be like your seventh period course. and it usually wouldn't run more than an hour and a half, and you were done by five or five 30. And I'm sure your research has now shown that some of these practices now extend until six 30 or seven. And then if you're playing the club sport, sometimes you're now on top of that.

You're [00:20:00] practicing until eight 30 or. . 

[00:20:03] Linda Flanagan: Yes. Yes. It's a reflection of our, it's our culture that says that the default mode is more, is better. If you practice more, if you put in more time, more hours, more training that's better and that you'll make you a better athlete and it'll make you a better student in whatever domain.

That more is better. And it is just simply, except for sleep, for the most part. more is not necessarily better. And I think coaches feel that pressure too, that I used to feel this sometimes as a cross country coach that, sometimes we'd be done, an hour and 25 minutes and all the other teams would be out there a lot longer.

But in running, you just, you can't run Yeah. exorbitant amounts every day. So there's a natural limit imposed on it, but, there's just, I had a girl on one team who, to, to your point about running off to do all these things, she'd go to my [00:21:00] cross country practice and she'd dash off to her ice hockey practice and then she'd rush home and study for her five AP classes.

It's this is just a kind of a miserable life. 

[00:21:11] John Boruk: It's madness. It's absolute maddening because at some points, you know that it's just that the kid mentally is not gonna be able to keep up with that schedule. 

[00:21:20] Linda Flanagan: Yes. Or something's gotta give. Yeah. Something has to give, and, sometimes it's the kid's mental health or their grades just plummet or they, it can't, it's unsustainable and. , and yet there's this relentless drive for, and belief among parents that they have to do this. and I, I'm here to say, don't do it . You don't have to do it.

[00:21:43] John Boruk: It's interesting you talk, you've talking about the shift in the paradigm over the last 25 years, but the poster child, when I think about all this, and maybe you remember the name nod, but N f NFL quarterback Todd Marinovich, who played at University of Southern California was then drafted, a first round, picked by the Raiders led them to the [00:22:00] AFC Championship game, I believe in 1990, where they lost to the bills.

hi. His story was one that was so fascinating back then because his. Pushed him so hard to be this NFL quarterback that it led him, I think, into marijuana use and into other recreational drugs, that it just became too much, even as he made it to the NFL. It's almost all that pressure culminated to the point to where it just became too much.

But what is that a lot of this national obsession is driven because they see opportunity potentially earning a college scholarship. And I can tell you statistically your chances depending on the sport are somewhere in the two to 5% if that of earning a college scholarship.

Yeah. But I think the reason why the drive is so high is because the price of college has become so enormous and so exorbitant that parents look at that and say, oh my. Do I want to be five or 10 years into debt paying off the, these college bills and taking out loans, [00:23:00] or, let me look at this route.

And I really believe the high price of a four year university has been in part to driving this obsession. . 

[00:23:10] Linda Flanagan: Yes, I agree. I do agree. And the average tuition price is $44,000 a year for a private college or university, and it's 12,000 for a public, and it's obviously much higher in some places, it's twice that.

At the same time, I do. While I think that is a driving force, I also think it's delusional. Because if you say I'm gonna invest in my kids' sports and with the, keep my fingers crossed, and maybe they'll get a scholarship. Like you say, my research suggests six, roughly 6% of high school athletes play in college, and roughly 2% of high school athletes get any money at all.

So if you're banking on that, it's a big gamble. and in, in terms of scholarship and reducing the cost of [00:24:00] tuition, because you might be wiser to put that money, if you're spending a lot of money on your kids' sport, you might be wiser to put that invested because it's, there's just no guarantees to put, it's, although the starting place ought to be, this is, it's really unlike that my child, no matter how good he or she is, so like bank on it not happening. Yes. And then if it does, great, but the idea that it's something you can count on is just decided. . 

[00:24:29] John Boruk: Statistically the odds are against you that this is going to happen. Yeah. Now, over the last 20, 25 years it also appears that universities aren't rewarding kids or maybe the very high echelon of kids are given scholarships, or maybe it happens in, in, in major university football programs.

But if you're talking about field hockey or if you're talking about lacrosse or baseball or softball, it doesn't seem that those full ride scholarships really exists, like maybe they did 25, 30 years ago. 

[00:24:59] Linda Flanagan: Yeah. The [00:25:00] number I came across is that 15% of division one scholarships are full rides.

, 

[00:25:06] John Boruk: That's not very that's not very much. 

[00:25:06] Linda Flanagan: Most, no, it isn't. The average, I guess another number I came across is that the average division one scholarship is 18,000, so that's not a bad. But if, that is again, is the average and it's, 15% of those D-I scholarships are full and that's a lot of money.

Agreed. That is certainly a lot of money, but most aren't gonna get. most aren't gonna get a significant amount of money. 

[00:25:35] John Boruk: So yeah, if you break down the numbers, let's say three to 5% of all kids who play high school sports are then afforded a chance to play in college. And then out of that three or five, take that pool of three to 5%.

Only 15% of those people will actually have their college paid for. Now you can see, you know what. Target we're shooting at here and it's not a big, very big one. Yes. 

[00:25:58] Linda Flanagan: Yeah. Yes. Now [00:26:00] that's right. And that's why I under I understand the rationale that maybe this will help offset the cost of college and for some kids it will, it just isn't a, I don't think it's a why strategy.

[00:26:11] John Boruk: Yes. A couple of things. When you talked about, I'm reading some of the bullet points of the national obsession of kids sports and youth sports. When you start to pump this much money into something and when I I'll just throw out an example. If you if I, my son plays a hockey tournament I can easily expect to drop a thousand dollars between.

And tolls and hotel and foods. And just the tournament expenses that are related to that and any equipment that he may need as a result so easily, it's a thousand dollars. So when you're putting this much money into youth sports at a very high level, it. forces your, it you see a your behavior start to change with it because your expectations didn't change.

And so it doesn't take very long for me to go on a social media, whether it's Twitter or [00:27:00] Facebook or where, or YouTube and see the egregious overbearing parents act in a childish way that not only completely embarrasses themselves, but embarrasses their kids. But the behavior's gotten so outta hand.

Fans, hockey parents climbing on the glass or running out onto the baseball diamond to confront an umpire. And I think it's, it appears that we're seeing more and more of these incidents 

[00:27:27] Linda Flanagan: Yes. I think it's partly a function of there's a lot of factors going on. One is the fact that when you put in this much money, the expression is what's your return on investment?

And if you paid a thousand dollars to take your child to this, ice hockey game or tournament, and the dumb referee makes a terrible. and then, it's just, you've just, your kid is now benched or off the ice, then you're gonna feel angry. You're gonna, feel like you didn't get your money's worth in effect.

Which of course is understandable, but [00:28:00] terrible. And by the way, the more the studies show that the more parents spend on their kids' sports, the less the kid likes it. Yeah. And the more pressure they feel. For all kinds of reasons, it's just the money is so corrupting in short.

But also in terms of the parental conduct and the sidelines or misconduct, I think there's other things at work. One is that apparently this has gotten worse since the pandemic, and I think that rings true to me because, we were all locked up in our caves and there's so much anger in general in our society and it's like a socially acceptable way to express anger is to scream and yell in sporting events, especially youth sporting events.

So I think that's another reason. Yeah. And don't forget there's one more which I think is not given proper attention and that is that it is embarrass. when your child doesn't do well, when you paid however much money for them to take these lessons and play on this team and get the great [00:29:00] coach, and there they are in front of the fans and they do something dumb or unskilled. They miss a shot they should have made whatever it is. I think it's embarrassing for parents. Some parents and, but it's, and for the kids, some are gonna react and certainly for the kids. Yes. 

[00:29:18] John Boruk: Yeah. And because the, then the kids start talking and then I'm sure, Johnny says to Timmy yeah.

What's your dad or mom gonna do today? What are they gonna say? And yeah what kid wants to answer that question or want to be on the receiving end of that sort of inquiry just to say, oh yeah. then that kid's thinking, oh my god. And then I have to perform, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna get yelled at.

Or if something doesn't happen, then you're gonna hear it from the stands. I still remember my dad. And my dad, he was really good. He just sat there and watched and even yelling my name from the stands, Hey, let's go. That even made me uneasy. So I can only imagine if they become front and center. Oh, my, Front and center of part of this game. 

[00:29:55] Linda Flanagan: So I honestly I find a hard time. I can explain it like, and talk about it [00:30:00] like we are, but it's very hard for me to understand honestly why parents do it, even if you know the money and the embarrassment and all that when it is so apparently uncomfortable for the child.

And if it involves, calling out the referee or the coach. It's just it's so embarrassing and I, I can't understand why parents do it, honestly, except they've just lost. They've lost control and it's permissible. Yeah. 

[00:30:28] John Boruk: And then another element to all of this, and I think this really is sad because sports is, we talk about sports.

being all inclusive. And a, it's a great playground to bring people from different ethnicities and backgrounds and stuff together to form a team and working together. Where else are you gonna find that? You know where you can get Yep. Somebody from the south side or from that you wouldn't normally see mm-hmm. to be on a particular team and to work in a cohesion to achieve a common goal. However, when we talk about how much money there, [00:31:00] Is, that's what creates that's what creates the point where these kids can't do that because now you're separating them by, , the eq, the economic class and it's the haves and the have-nots and only the halves are playing at a certain level.

And the have-nots are now rele. to whatever, to, to something to where you're not gonna get the top coaches. Yeah. Or you're not gonna, yeah. And that's what's really said about this. Yeah. And even basketball, with the AAU basketball and where that has gone is that, the, the playground in the inner city may be great, but Yeah.

If you don't have the money, cuz we're gonna go, we're going down to Virginia this weekend to play in this big a u tournament. And these kids don't ha, their parents just don't have the resources. And so they're essentially weeded out of the system.

[00:31:44] Linda Flanagan: Yeah. That's, it's I truly believe that it's one of the worst features of the way we do youth sports Now that, as you say, it's playing together, or as the social psychologist Gordon Alport put it, doing life [00:32:00] together is what, brings down barriers between people, sports are one of the few places where young people. 

And adults too, if we still played sports as adults. But where kids can get to know kids from different walks, other kids from different walks of life, different socioeconomic groups, different races and ethnicities, and it's normal.

It's not imposed on them. It's just natural and they, it's just is such a wonderful way to break down barriers. And yet now when this like wonderful attribute of has been eroded by the way we do them now. So that, again, like you say, we're separating, it's the haves and the have nots and low income kids are left with the scraps.

And in my town, for example I was talking to the head of our Y the other day and he said that they used to offer a soccer program to community wide and they, for four [00:33:00] and five year olds. And it was just fun. It was, low to call it low stakes. I think we could say no stakes.

Family centered, small fields, all that. And then it's four to five year olds. The soccer club in our town decided, oh, and this Y team, sorry, they would get like 400. very popular. The soccer club in our town decided they were gonna offer private instruction. So they offer a junior pre academy for U-4 s, which is just laughable on its face.

But this just club program then sucked off about a hundred kids from the. All of a sudden this, the elite segment has been removed and so now you have a smaller pool of kids who are playing together and that's just like a micro, a microcosm of the whole youth sports scene where, you know, if you can afford a, a better option, you're gonna do it.

And to help everybody else. . 

[00:33:59] John Boruk: Yeah. And it's [00:34:00] elitism at its finest, right? You're, yes. You're putting yourself in an elite category, whether your child is actually elite in the sport that they play. I mentioned, yeah. Yes. I mentioned, yeah, I mentioned off the top of the show the NIL and I wanted to come across, there was a Washington Post article, by the way, we for those who don't know, we record the show in our Wilmington, Delaware studios which are right there on the border of Delaware, Pennsylvania becoming one of the latest states to allow high school athletes now to profit from their name, image and likeness.

The NIL, just like college athletes do. So the Washington Post put a story out there about and so it's one thing in high school athletes to do this. The Washington Post, and I'm gonna go into this story a little bit and then I want your side of things. Highlighted second grade twin basketball players whose father sees now an environment for exposure and wants his kids to become the youngest players in the country to land an NIL deal.

So it's all part of this brand. So what is the dad doing? Curating social media feeds, editing YouTube highlight [00:35:00] videos and touting his sons as the top second graders in the. And he says, this is his quote, this is part of my strategy. Build their name up, build the expectations up, build their skills up, build their bodies up so that by the time they get to high school, these companies are going to pay them to play.

This is where we're headed with the NIL. And this is why I think you're seeing some of these longtime college coaches who have been around 20, 25 years now, say, enough's enough. And I'm not gonna be a part of it. But you're you, if you want, ever wondered were the NIL and I think that to some degree that the college athletes who bring so much income and so much revenue into these major universities, should be compensated some way. Don't think for a second that the parent that I just described or somebody out there is not gonna exploit it at a much different level. 

[00:35:49] Linda Flanagan: Yes, I know I read that article and when NIL was passed, I had that this, my first worry was, oh no, what is this gonna do to use sports?

Because [00:36:00] it's like one, just one more enticement to get kids to monetize kids' support. And like you, there's some, you have to do something about college sports and these players who are bringing in so much money and not seeing any of it, that just seems totally unjust. At the same time, it, it's hard for me to believe that those, that example you read, which I also read, is going to be.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but it's hard to believe that will be normalized. However, it's possible that kids will need protections the way kids sports will need protections the way young actors and actresses do. This is what happened in Hollywood because in the old child actors were exploited, the way kids could be playing sports and until the laws were changed to limit the number of hours and I'm sad and that sort of thing. And we know we may come to [00:37:00] that in youth sports and maybe that's not a bad thing. Yeah. If we had some kind of mandates on how many hours they can participate because it's not in their interest to be playing 20 hours a week when they're eight years old.

Yep. It's, it. , it's a horrifying development, maybe something good will come out of it. 

[00:37:17] John Boruk: I, I equate it in what I just read scoring whatever a lucrative NIL deal. It, it doesn't sound too much different than being a content creator on YouTube. You're putting something out there to gain eyeballs. You're putting something out there to try to reach a mass appeal. Across the public. That's really what it is. It's no more than that. It's just the fact that you're doing it with kids who have no business being, I think, exploited in this way. In this manner.

Yeah. Not at this age and I remember Sports Illustrated. Yeah. I remember back in the day was a big contributor to this. They went through and ranked, here's the best first grader. Here's the best second grader, third grader. They did that all the way up through high school. And I remember reading and I'm talking, this is something in the early nineties, I remember [00:38:00] reading and said, oh, that's cool, where did they find these kids?

Now, it, it, at that time, g gosh knows, I just the, that hype and putting that into their heads. And I'm pretty sure that the kids who were highlighted or featured as the top, whatever, their grade certainly didn't end up that way by the time they got outta high school.

[00:38:17] Linda Flanagan: yes, I, yes. Yeah. So I would be shocked if they did . 

[00:38:22] John Boruk: Yeah. So anyway, we're talking with Linda Flanagan author of Take Back the Game, how Money and Mania are Ruining Kids Sports and Why it Matters. And you mentioned in the book the changes that we need now. So let's get into that a little bit. What changes? Should need to be instituted so that we do take back the game.

So it's not this money driven entity that has really just gotten outta control.

[00:38:43] Linda Flanagan: I wish I had some easy answer. Unfortunately there's not oh, just do this and we'll fix it. And there's a I'm sure you know there's individuals and organizations that are trying to wrap their arms around it and address these problems.

In my book I talk about some of the big ideas [00:39:00] that are floated around that would make a difference. They would absolutely change the youth sport and VR landscape. For example, if we did away with college athletic scholarships. If we did away with admissions advantages, that would completely transform it because suddenly the incentives for going crazy when they're young would disappear, I think for many families because there is this hope that it will lead to something if not a scholarship and access to a better college.

I think if we had an appetite in this country for some kind of regulation of youth sports by either establishing some kind of ministry of sport or a some kind of federal bureaucracy that could bake youth sports into the administrative state. We would have more, we'd be better able to control some of these factors that are, spinning it out of control.

Another grand idea that some David Redpath has [00:40:00] proposed is, we have this connection with sports and school. We're one of the few countries in the world that does this, but where most kids get their sports experiences through their school, that's not the way it's done elsewhere.

And we don't have to do it this way. We could separate them and have sports just at the local level fund community based sports locally. See, and I, who knows if any, if there would be enough momentum to make any of these fixes actually happen. It takes, it's a complex problem and while there are a lot of people working on it it's hard to imagine that any of those would ever take shape.

But there are incremental things we can do. We can, I'm a big fan of improving what instead of separating sports from school, improving them in schools and not just by having, like better uniforms. Offering intramurals, offering after school sports that are not varsity sports. So with the [00:41:00] idea being you keep more kids playing, keep more kids moving and being together in an athletic environment, it also keeps 'em off their phone, which we can all think, which I think we can all celebrate.

Another option is I would love it if towns and cities would get serious about enforcing their permit power of expanding it over some of the groups who come and need the clubs and various groups that want to use public fields, they need to get permits. If we wanna address the problem with, say, coaching education, cause coaches are famously untrained towns and municipalities, cities could impose re a training requirement for coaches as a part of permission process for the permit. There are backdoor ways of getting in, dealing with some of this. I think fundamentally parents have to come around as well and say, look, we don't wanna do this anymore.

It those who are participating at the highest levels, I'm talking, there's gotta be a better way. We're gonna find a better way. [00:42:00] If there isn't one, we're gonna make one. And we're not separating our family every weekend. And we're not putting pressure, endless pressure on our child to do this or to participate when it's out of control.

Like the young woman I was telling you about, who you know with her five aps and it's gonna take some kind of willingness on the part of parents to say, no, we're not doing this anymore. We want a better way. I dunno. What do you think? 

[00:42:26] John Boruk: I do and I think that there're, I think the season, the window of when you play, first off to play anything.

I don't care what the sport is to play it nine, 10 months out of a year. Is ludicrous in itself. It's crazy. There's no reason to do that. Yeah. You Take spring I, I, almost have a two week spring break period. The problem with school systems in different states and everything is that spring break is differs from what could be mid-March, could be April, but it anyway, take that spring break.

Yeah. And go on a family vacation. The one thing, one thing that we haven't talked about, if you're in a multi child household, we got two or three kids [00:43:00] and , maybe one doesn't play sports, is that you're playing sports at the expense of other kids in your house. Yeah. And so the kids that don't play sports, or resent the fact that they're always on the road or they're always gone.

And so I try to find a way. If it's a tournament let's say, I know my, my, my son who's playing in the tournament is gonna be in good hands because even when they're not playing their particular sport, they're finding a way to play in the hotel or do whatever. I take my other child, my daughter has to, let's go do a Daddy do thing.

Could be a movie, could be the mall. It could be something fun. So That particular trip has some value or something that she's gonna get out of it as well, and I think that's something that's also not really. Disgust in all of this is that you're neglecting. Yeah, I agree.

You're neglecting the needs and the wants and the desire. So when you get into summer and if you're, if it's a faller, there's no reason to play that sport. Be with the family. Yep. Do other things. As I said, as we were discussing off the top get involved in unstructured activities where you're just running around.

Get in the pool. That was something that was [00:44:00] popular when we were kids. . You had you, you had the community pool where you had a membership and you spent all summer in the community pool. That was great. You invented games. It's like games aren't invented anymore.

They, we don't, yeah. Let kids run with their imaginations and create games. Because we're creating it all for them. We're doing it all for them. They've got to figure things out on their own. 

[00:44:20] Linda Flanagan: There's another cost in addition to siblings is marriage. Yeah. I've heard from many parents about how, they've divide and conquer every weekend.

Maybe one parent goes with one kid to a game, another parent goes to another game, or stays back with the kids who hates sports. And so you have this marital division. So that's just another thing that sacrificed on the altar of youth sports, if you're working, if you're both working, you're both working parents, like how exhausting is that to work all week and then come home and like driving all over the place to deposit your child on some field.

I think it is an under truly underappreciated consequence of [00:45:00] all of this intensity is the effect on marriages and the effect on siblings. 

[00:45:05] John Boruk: Yeah, absolutely, and that's the part that I hope improves or at least something that is considered within the home. But that's every family has to navigate it at their own pace and what they consider is good for them.

Yeah. But that's something that I, I try to be mindful of, and I think it's important. That along the way throughout this process that people have to be mindful of. All right, Linda, tell me, just tell me really what's in your pipeline? What are you working on now? Or is there gonna be a sequel to this book?

And be because it, as you mentioned just since the pandemic, just how much it's changed since then. So where do you go from here? 

[00:45:38] Linda Flanagan: I don't know. I'm just, as I said before, we got on the air. I'm just trying to stay on top of all the changes and, it's a tumultuous time also with college sports where they're headed.

We don't know what's gonna happen with the Supreme Court and the affirmative action ruling, which could have a big effect on college sports. 

[00:45:55] John Boruk: Talk about that real quickly for people who don't know what this, the affirmative [00:46:00] Action Ruling is about and what it could lead to. 

[00:46:02] Linda Flanagan: The Supreme Court is hearing a case that would throw challenges, the legality of admissions offices, admitting students based on race for diversity and that sort of thing. And it's expected that the Supreme Court's gonna overturn that. Just a few months ago, there was an article in the New York Times, or if you saw it on fencing, and how fencing is this sport that you know adopt, I'm sure that many of the kids like it and maybe the parents like it, but it also is a way into some of the top colleges because the top colleges have offered that and it's very expensive.

In this article it said that, if the Supreme Court overturns that ruling about affirmative action and makes it impossible for them, for colleges to admit students on the basis of race, that it's going to upend the way colleges go about doing their admissions, including how they admit app athletes [00:47:00] because they are some of the, not to call them a protected class, but they have a shortcut in that non-athletes do not have, and it's expected, it's just gonna upend the way colleges go about admitting students, including, students of color and the minorities, oh, and also the wealthy kids, the legacy candidates.

It's gonna upend all of. So that's another thing, another issue to look out for this year in sports.  

[00:47:27] John Boruk: Okay. It's something to certainly keep an eye on Linda Flanagan. Take back the game, how money and mania are ruining kids sports and why it matters. If you wanted to check that out, you can also go to her website, Linda Flanagan author.com.

Linda, thank you so much for taking, this is such a, it is. It's really good. And I know every parent. As a kid and may have a high performing kid who gets wrapped up in all this. There's, it's a tug of war one on one side of things. Yeah. You want your child to be part of it. On the other side of things, you have the other side of [00:48:00] your brain telling you, do we really need to do all this?

Do we need to go through all this and should it be. This extensive I think the bottom line is let your kid drive the train on this. Let him drive the bus. Yeah, exactly. if, And if this is where he's pushing, then go along for the ride. But don't bring expectations with him.

[00:48:17] Linda Flanagan: And put boundaries around it so that you can preserve your family life to the, be conscious of the fact that your family life is gonna be challenged. You gotta work to preserve it.  

[00:48:27] John Boruk: Yeah. So anyway. Linda Flanagan, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. And we'll have to get you back on for sure.

[00:48:33] Linda Flanagan: Thank you so much for having me. It was nice. Nice to talk to you

[00:48:35] John Boruk: Yeah, very good conversation. Just another reminder, hey, if you're listening to us please subscribe to us, wherever you listen to us, where you can be found on Spotify and Google apple Podcast, Amazon as well. Just go on there, subscribe.

We'd love it if you if you give us a review. Tell us what you think. Hey, it doesn't always have to be great. We understand that we're trying to hit on every angle of you sports. But do that and thanks for listening and hopefully you'll [00:49:00] join us next time.