Insights from working with NHL athletes: Guest Episode - Our Kids Play Hockey

Lee Elias: 0:15

Well, we've got a real treat. Well, I should say I've got a real treat. Tonight we're interviewing John Boruk. So he was a sportscaster in Philadelphia for many years Don't worry, we don't just talk about Philadelphia sports, the whole episode because his son is a high level hockey player in the area and he has created a show called raising a champion, which really dives into a lot of the same subject matter we do on our kids by hockey. It's a great, great crossover episode and we discuss a lot of different things from, obviously, how he got into hockey, but a lot of the parenting side of hockey and how it applies to our own children and the things he's learned in being a sportscaster and being around a lot of NHL players throughout his career and how he applies that to being a really great father and a great leader in the market today.

Lee Elias: 0:57

All right, before we jump into it with John, I just want to remind you guys our children's book when Hockey Stops is still available at when hockey stopscom. The whole purpose of this book is to teach your kids how to deal with adversity, which is something we talk about on the show today. The book dives into a young character who is facing a situation. He can't play for the year and he still stays involved in the game Even though he's injured. It's got a ton of great rave reviews. We are really, really proud of it and we're really fortunate that a lot of people love it as much as we do. So check that out when hockey stopscom or, if you're inclined, go over to Amazon it's on there too and check it out.

Lee Elias: 1:31

But without further ado, let's dive, let's dive, let's dive and dive into this episode. John Borek on Our Kids Playhockey. Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Playhockey. I'm Leo Elias. With Mike Benelli, kristi Cascio burns us literally on assignment tonight.

Lee Elias: 1:48

Our guest today, john Borek, has 11 regional Emmy awards that he's earned, over 25 years of sports broadcasting covering some of the world's biggest athletes on the game's biggest stage. He is the host of the raising a champion podcast, which we highly recommend to all of you, which dives into the industry of youth sports through the eyes of former professional athletes, parents, coaches, administrators and medical experts. To answer how youth sports can improve, be safer, cost effective and more inclusive for all athletes Sounds very familiar, which is one of the reasons we're very excited to have him tonight. However, with all of those accolades, he will tell you that his greatest and proudest accomplishment has been raising three children who have all been very active through sports, including youth hockey, in their everyday lives. We're looking forward to diving into this one, john, welcome to Our Kids Playhockey.

John Boruk: 2:36

Hey, it's good to be here. It is great to see a podcast dedicated to kind of what I talk about. I mean, I encompass all sports, but you guys are hockey centric, so that's really cool. And I'm right in the thick of it because I got a 2011 who's getting ready to start his Pee Wee major season, so it's fun and I'm sure that you guys, between guests, you have a lot of really good information out there for parents and coaches and everybody.

Lee Elias: 3:04

Yeah, I'd say, if there was a target and like, the center of the target was the target audience, your son's at that exact point which means that you're there as a parent as well.

Lee Elias: 3:14

We appreciate the compliment, obviously, and again, you're doing great work on your show as well. I'm going to say it again to the audience If you like our show, you will love his show as well, so make sure you check that out. I wanted to start with it, john, I was going to tell you this. So typically, when I do my rundowns for shows and my research, I have so many questions. We never get to all of them, but for you, I kind of know where we're going tonight, so I actually don't have a ton of questions because I'm pretty sure we're going to have big discussions.

John Boruk: 3:42

All right good.

Lee Elias: 3:43

Yeah, so I'm looking forward to it. So again, I've watched you interview people for years, so thank you for allowing us to flip the script a bit, but I actually wanted to start with you. Just tell us a little bit about the role that hockey has played in your life, and again a little bit more about your son, who's playing.

John Boruk: 3:57

Yeah.

Lee Elias: 3:57

How you've gotten there.

John Boruk: 3:59

Yeah, that's, it's well, it goes back to. You know, I remember, obviously I grew up in the Dallas, fort Worth, texas area back in the 1980s and, believe it or not, I actually had this affinity for hockey. I didn't know what it was, but I thought it was so cool. There was nowhere to watch it. You know, this is pre cable. You know, I think maybe when the Stanley Cup was on back in, that day is the only time that you could watch hockey and there was no youth programs. The only place that you could even skate was to go to a mall that had, like you know, an ice sheet there in the middle of the mall.

John Boruk: 4:39

So when I got into sports casting, one of the big awards, as I was moving through the ranks from one city to the next, was in 1998, I took a job in national, the year that the national predators were awarded an expansion team. So I got there and they started playing seven, eight months later. So that was really my time to cover the sport, be around the sport, be around the players you know, get to know the ends, the outs, you know how they go about it, they train and everything. And then from national I moved after five years to Detroit and during that time was probably the greatest collection of talent you'll ever see assembled on one team, that Red Wings team, prior to the whole lockout and salary cap era, when they had Robotye, hall, hosh, chellios, iserman, zetterberg that's Sue.

Lee Elias: 5:42

This isn't an all star team you're naming, by the way, this is just the Detroit Red. Wings of that time One team.

John Boruk: 5:47

Yeah, that won the Stanley Cup in 2002. And I got there, you know, the year after that but the team was still assembled. So it was, yeah, and I just had a passion for the sport, you know, just passion for covering, love the players. If you've ever been around NHL players, you just know that they're a different breed, they're so down to earth and a lot of that is because the way that you have to play the sport you're upbringing and the way that you know you go about it is that you can't be a me centric type person. You got to check your ego anytime that you step inside a rink because the game will expose you, expose those players who try to play that way. So you know, being around locker rooms and that, and then moving on to Philadelphia and being able to cover the Flyers for 13 years was really cool. And then, you know, when I got here, my two boys were born here. My oldest son, he got on a pair of ice skates and I kind of wanted to push him in that direction but he didn't really have an interest and that was fine. You know the one thing that I told myself, you know, when it came to developing, you know my kids, and whatever they wanted to do is well, first off, they have to have a passion, like I don't want to, never want to have to talk them into doing something. They're the one that have to, you know, to show that they have a real, genuine interest in doing something. So he didn't have it. And then my youngest son, who was born in 2011,. He won. I said we're going to get him out there at the age of like I think I had him on skates at the age of three or four and I remember I was holding up under his arms and you know I was out there for maybe two, three different sessions and I said, if this kid doesn't get on, I can't, my arms are going to fall off If he doesn't just start skating. And about that time he just started taking off. And that's how it starts, right, you know, you get him out there at the age of three, and then they just they're able to stay on their legs and he's out there. I got, you know, still have video on my phone he's out there chasing the puck with kids, you know, two and three years older than him, and that's how it all got started. I bought little hockey jerseys for him and so he had like a, a Lundquist jersey, a Geru jersey, a Tyler Sagan jersey back and they just get out there and just skate. So you know it. You know it was sort of a bittersweet thing in terms of leaving NBC Sports Philadelphia when I did, because you know I had I stayed on there and continue to cover the team, cover the Flyers. There's a lot of sacrifices that have to be made and so now I'm grateful that I get a chance to be there every weekend.

John Boruk: 8:39

Go to tournaments he's got tournaments in Toronto and Detroit, rochester. I think we're going to Pittsburgh. It's crazy. It's crazy, you know, when you, you know we're, we're all we're going now, but it's, it's great, you know it's. You build such a camaraderie with parents and I really believe that the parents probably the wins and losses mean more to the parents than the kids. They just like to get out there and and, and and you know they're competitive and have fun.

John Boruk: 9:12

But but it's good and, and and I you know, and with him and his love for hockey, you know we'll sit here and watch hockey on television. How, how he can pick things up as an analyst, you know, playing the game, which is so cool. So it's, it's really good, it's. I'm, I'm glad that I have him to do that, because it's really kept me involved in hockey after leaving NBC sports.

Lee Elias: 9:36

Well, I want to add too, real quick, just so we don't leave them out your other kids play sports too, right? You had mentioned that in the pre show.

John Boruk: 9:41

Yeah, yeah, so my oldest my yep my oldest daughter is. She's still doing karate. She's a second degree black belt. She's inching her way towards being a third degree black belt. My oldest son got his black belt as well. He kind of did that because they're they're very close in age, my daughter and my older son, and then he just wanted to focus and concentrate on basketball. He tried football one year or a couple of years, but he just wanted to focus primarily on basketball and that's essentially what he's been doing for the last three, four years.

John Boruk: 10:18

Yeah, that's really cool, he's going to be a junior in high school and he's going to play on the varsity basketball too.

Lee Elias: 10:23

So success in sports. Now here's a cool question that just popped in my head and and that you know we get a lot of emails on this show. We get a lot of feedback just about the anxiety of being a parent, right, and we all feel that in different ways. So here's my question You've been around the NHL athlete some of the best right In multiple markets. Do you feel that that experience of being around those athletes has has influenced the way that you view the youth game? Right? Because, again, john, we hear all the time parents talk about the ROI of youth hockey and if they can just make college or they can just make the show, and I mean, I think that we talk about the insanity of that conversation. You know, at any point really in the youth game outside, maybe the U18 level is when that's really you even can consider that right. So did your experience on the air and being a sports journalist impact the way you approach the game as a parent?

John Boruk: 11:18

That's a really good question and I would say, for the most part, no. Until I was, I Transition more from just doing pre and post game shows into following the team and Covering them on the road, writing for the, for the website. I did that for the last two years. I was there and and they would have a dad's trip, and so I would really, because I had kids of my own at the time. I I I really took the time to get to know some of the dads, like Claude Jereau's, dad Ray, and, and I would ask the dads, tell, tell me about what you did. Tell me, because I was like a sponge at that point. I just wanted to absorb all the information, everything that they did, you know, along the way, and the one constant, I think, was, as they just said, you know, no, you know, we didn't, I didn't, you know, push him, you know, it's one of those things that they have to drive the train. You can, you can put the coal in the engine for them. You know, you can supply it, but they're the ones that have to drive, they're the ones that could be the driving force. If you got to be behind them and pushing them, it's not gonna work and they, none of them, were what I would consider these over zealous parents, these crazy, you know parents. Now, a lot of them were like with Travis Kinek and his dad was his coach for, I think, until he got to be 15 or 16 in juniors. So he was a coach, so you'd see that, but certainly not Claude Jereau's dad. Claude Jereau's dad was a little electrician and he just knows that. You know they lived way up in Hearst, ontario, where they had a lot of cold winters. You know Claude would leave the house and go out and play for three or four hours. You know, because you could do that. You know, and and and you know that's why you know a lot of Canadians have such an advantage, because they have those colder winters. Where it, you know it's, it's it's kind of like having Inner-city basketball courts all over the place. You know that that's just. They just have frozen ponds because the weather gets that cold, but that's.

John Boruk: 13:18

But that's when I really started to pick up a lot of things. It's talking to some of these dads, talking to some of the moms when they would can't come into town. You know, I did a big story. In fact I got them to come on the podcast. But before that, johnny Goudreau and I would say that Probably, yee, goudreau is is probably more in line with those hardcore parents, but he was a coach. He was a skating coach. He ran the organization, you know, ran the outfit there, holly dell and so that was his job and Johnny just became it. But I don't think that that, I Don't think you Goudreau said Johnny got to be here, be here, be here. Johnny just developed into being a rat ring, you know, and that that he just never wanted to leave. You know, it's like boom, if dad's gonna be there, then I want to be there and that's the way it's gonna be. So but that would that. Yeah, that was what was really cool, it was a really good story.

John Boruk: 14:10

Like talking to Brian Elliott's dad was. You know, brian Elliott was a skater and he was a position player as a squirt. And then when you got to pee, we at about this age he's like, hey, dad, I want to, I don't want to ever come off the ice. And he's like, okay, well, I don't know what to tell you. It goes well. Then I want to be a goalie. So at the age of 12, brian Elliott decides that he just doesn't want to skate anymore. He doesn't want to be a position player, wants to be a goalie right.

John Boruk: 14:36

And so you think at the age of 12 you're starting that it seems kind of late, but that's, that's what happened. And so you know, I think, that if you have talent and and and and, 90% of it it's just raw DNA talent. You know, if you've got the raw DNA talent, it's the other 10, 15%, that. How much can you push yourself? How much are you willing to work when others don't want to work? You know how just all the stuff off the ice Stay, conditioning and all of that. But I really believe that you know, if you want you don't want to say this to parents because everybody's got this lofty goal right hey, my kid's gonna is good, you know he's gonna be there, he's, he's great at the age of six and that sort of thing and they just it's.

John Boruk: 15:29

So I'm telling you you're the funnel. I talk about the funnel, I mean the funnels here and then when, even when you get to college, it's like down to here and then the NHL is so tiny but it's so much goes into it, like so much. I wanted, I actually want to do an episode and I haven't gotten this yet, but I got to find the right person. Because when you get to be 15, 16, 17 and 18 is when you start thinking about Relationships. You start thinking about, you know, dating girls and dating this and and, and it's easy for that to kind of, if you, if you have that goal of wanting to play collegiate hockey or you want to play junior hockey and have NHL aspirations, you know you got a really have tunnel vision and it's, it's easy to get sidetracked.

John Boruk: 16:19

You know, and, like Johnny Goodrow, when I talked to his parents, you had to Skip. You know, the junior dance, the sophomore dance, the senior problem, those things, it's, it's, it's not an option like, it's just not. If you you want to continue to ascend to the point to where you want to, you have to make sacrifices along the way. So, yeah, it's. That's when I think I really started to to to Absorb a lot of information, when I started to talk to a lot of the parents Started, the dads and some of the moms of the flyers and stuff.

Lee Elias: 16:53

Well, I'll tell you that I have an immense passion for the game and I realized early on and again, mike and I always joke that this, this podcast, is therapy for all of us. But as much passion as I have for the game, can't put that into my child, right, they have to develop yet right.

Lee Elias: 17:09

And it doesn't matter and that's a common theme I see amongst parents, and I'm actually really thankful that you shared that, john, because I think it shows you I you know, especially when you get the elite level, it's never exactly what I think people think it is right. And I'll say we've interviewed NHL parents and NHL players and I think for the most part across the board, like you said, 99.5% of people in the NHL that play in the NHL have that passion right. There are a few that just just like, as you said, they have their all talent but they don't tend to last as long as people think right. I remember Long time ago in the 90s I remember the 90s Wayne Gretzky was still in New York.

Lee Elias: 17:47

We're just, probably just arrived in New York and he was on like a public access radio show and some parent called in Like I don't even know if I've told you this one, and they said listen, wayne, my kid, can you tell my kid to practice? Can you tell my kid to practice harder? And this was a really impactful moment for me as a young person. Listen, he goes. No, I cannot tell you.

John Boruk: 18:06

Yeah.

Lee Elias: 18:06

I don't want it right. And here's the greatest hockey player ever right, saying that. You know, if you don't want it, it's not, it doesn't matter. The rest is almost doesn't matter.

John Boruk: 18:17

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. I had a similar talk like that with my son, where they have us like a three-fifths the rink as opposed to the NHL rink, and he likes to be on the three-fifths rink, of course, because there's not as much surface space, so you don't have to worry about skating up and down and up and down, it's, it's, you're playing the short game and battling and he loves all that stuff.

John Boruk: 18:37

But he's like oh oh he goes what rink are we on? So when I tell him, oh yeah, you're on the NHL rink tonight, he's like, oh god, you know. And so I'm like, look, you got it, you get. I said you got to find a way to get something out of pride. If you want to get where you want to go, practices where it's gonna happen, right, it's not gonna be in games, you know, you're not gonna. You don't do the necessary skill work. Playing in games it's doing it in practice and and and paying attention and focusing and embracing that the really great players Embrace practice, not just playing the games. The games is like once they get into the games they're already locked in the mentality, but they learn how to get stuff in practice. That's why I love to read Kobe Bryant a lot, because Kobe was, I mean, one of the best you know in Jordan.

Lee Elias: 19:24

Those guys talked about Maximizing their practice time and how they practice hard, so the games are easy.

John Boruk: 19:32

Yeah but you mentioned something too about like the kids and instilling passion. I Ask him every single year and we had a hard lesson this year because he was cut from one of his, the team that he played for last year. One of one of the big teams folded, so you had a disbursement of about 13 14 kids looking for a home, looking for a new team, and he happened to just sort of be one of the odd ones out, even though I thought he had a really good year. It happens and I said, you know, I gave him some options. But I asked him every single year. I said Do you want to play triple a hockey? Because this isn't cheap. I mean, between tuition and equipment and being on your 13 now, in three years, I'm buying jerseys every single year. You know you're talking. You know a hockey season is 10 to 15 thousand dollars. That's not cheap. So if you want to do I need to know that you want to do this, that you have the, that you're willing to go to every practice and every game and you have the, that you have an enjoyment, not just that you wanted to enjoy doing is. If you don't enjoy doing it, then all of this is is pointless. You know we can. You can play double a hockey and have fun, and we can save a whole lot of money and not have to travel, you know, all across the Northeast. So that's the key.

John Boruk: 20:50

I think you, if there's a parent out there when you're in that summer time, get away from hockey, go do vacations, let them play, let them do something. You take trips to the beach, the shore, whatever, but just get away. You don't need to so that their batteries are charged. But then make sure that they really, before you embark and usually you got to make that decision back in March that they definitely want to stick with AAA, because as you start to move up it starts to get a little rougher. We're now one year away from checking.

John Boruk: 21:26

That's a whole different beast that a lot of kids aren't going to be really acclimated to. Then, after that, you're about two years away from these guys hitting puberty. When that happens, bodies change, a lot changes. Some of the kids that may be on top now it's going to be flipped. It's going to be completely different. You're going to see kids that you never thought were good all of a sudden grow into their bodies and now the whole sports completely changed for them. I just want to make sure that this is still what he wants, because I don't say that my dream is your dream. Your dream is my dream, but if this isn't your passion anymore, then it's certainly not going to be my passion.

Mike Bonelli: 22:05

Right yeah, I think that comes up too all the time we talk about, like we even mentioned a little earlier and you used the term ROI, right, I think we've all lost sight and listening to you and your real life, right yeah, your podcast, your world and your discussion with all athletes and athletic parents is that this ROI somehow turned into pro hockey or a pro sport, as opposed to building a better human being. The ROI is that, for 98% of the young men and women that go through sport at even the highest levels, right yeah, end up being our leaders. We want them to be the ones that have the grit, that had the adversity. It can deal with change, it can deal with conflict, it can deal with working within a team setting, whether you're a plumber or a stockbroker that you see, like this, somewhere along the line, the ROI turned into like a paid position to play the sport, as opposed to all of the things that we got our kids into sports for in the first place. Obviously, social media has played a huge part in that and this professionalization of used sports. But, to your point, john, when you can evaluate with your children and say, okay, where are we at? Is this something you love doing, never really talking about. Well, do you love doing it because you ultimately want to be Tyler Sagan?

Mike Bonelli: 23:31

We were up in a hockey camp in Toronto and there's a brand new Maserati outside and it's 6.30 in the morning and you see Tyler Sagan walks out. He just got done with his workout, he gets in the car and all the kids are like, oh my God, that was Tyler Sagan. Look at the car he has and look at the life. There's a guy behind him carrying like 15 sticks. I said, yeah, but he's here at 5.30 in the morning and he's doing the work. He's still a dedicated.

Mike Bonelli: 24:01

You know, people don't see all that. They don't see all that. They don't see the practice, they don't see the fact that the games are the funnest part, because it's actually less work. You're like, wow, you guys have some fun here, but I think that somewhere in the line, maybe you could talk about that a little bit, because you're dealing with all sports, right, john. Yeah, where did that like? Where do you think that disconnect really has become from? Hey, I want my kids playing sport because I want them to learn all the lessons that sports supposed to be teaching, as opposed to oh, no, no, my kid's going to play a sport so he doesn't have to go to real, you know, have a real job.

John Boruk: 24:38

Well, first off, there shouldn't even be a mentality of having an ROI Like you. Don't even, you shouldn't even be thinking about any return on whatever your investment is Okay. The return is that you enjoy watching him play, at whatever level he's playing at. That's the return. That's the way I look at it. I just said, hey, I love watching him play. It brings me great joy, however long it is. Maybe it's until 16, maybe it's 17 or 18 through high school, I don't know but I really enjoy it. As long as he enjoys it and I enjoy it, I'll invest and I'm not putting this money thinking that there's some big, shiny object down the road and if he doesn't get it it's going to be a major disappointment.

John Boruk: 25:22

I don't look at that at all because, well, first off, you can't, you don't a lot of things change, like I said, I'm just mentioning the whole. You know these kids get. You know they get girlfriends and maybe then, all of a sudden, sports. You know I'm not really into it all that much. You know it's kind of. You know I'd rather go out here and party with Johnny and some of the boys as they get older. So that's different.

John Boruk: 25:50

You ask when did the mentality start to change when things started to get more expensive, when families have now, when you started having elite clubs and elite teams and the cost of tuition, and then these coaches are getting paid and you see how much you're having to pay your expenses and how much, you know. You look on your spreadsheets and you see you know how much money, the thousands of dollars. That's when they said, well, I'd better get something out of this. That's where the mentality started, because back in my day, when I was playing, everything was YMCA or Little League, this. You know, my parents were on a shoestring budget and it was never like that. It was never like that at all. There wasn't not all these hyper.

John Boruk: 26:36

You know, well, you got to be on this travel team and well, I'm on two travel teams and then I'm. You know, then it becomes a 12 month long ordeal. That was never, ever the case. But that's, but it's. Everybody's trying to keep up with everybody else and when somebody's paying, oh, we're going to go up here to play this tournament. I don't get caught up in it, it doesn't bother me one bit, but I see it happening all the time. And that's where it all started is when the money started to flow in and it became big business is when parents says well, if I'm buying into this, I better be getting something out of it.

Mike Bonelli: 27:11

Right and I think, and obviously the organization and the coaches and the teams you know feed into that right.

Mike Bonelli: 27:17

Because all of a sudden somebody said oh, wait, a minute, I don't have to be a vault. Like my father volunteered for everything, like he was doing the clock and we got to get in the door and help him with water bottles. Like whoa, I could have got paid for all that. Like I could. I could actually turn this into a revenue stream yeah, to myself, by starting this business and having a travel team that goes to Boston every weekend. So, yeah, there's no doubt about it, and I think, and I think that's where we actually.

Mike Bonelli: 27:37

It's so funny because we just had this conversation the other day with another, another guest, about the point of saying you know, we're saying, like, what you did as a kid, like why did you forget that all the stuff that you did as a kid was because you loved going and doing it. And go like we see, we talked to, we talked to parents all the time. Does your son or daughter go out on their own and hit balls? Did they go on their own and shoot pucks? Did they get up in the morning and go and all of a sudden you're like wait where, where you know you kind of get into.

Mike Bonelli: 28:07

you know, back when I grew up and a lot of and a lot of the best athletes I knew you had to beg them to come inside. Like you guys said listen, that's it. You don't come inside, I'm taking your stick away.

Lee Elias: 28:20

Like you have to get in as opposed to. As opposed to.

Mike Bonelli: 28:22

I just pay two hours. You must go to this clinic. You got to go to it. It's just that that whole pendulum is shifted and then the sad reality is the kids that are doing that on their own Are doing it on their own there and we don't see that. Everybody forgets that they're there. That's a self-motivated kid. I almost. I almost get really I'm not jaded so much, but like I'll, I'll really question apparently, is your son really want to be here at 530 in the morning? I know the year, but is this something like they literally? You went out in the car was started and they had a cup of coffee for you. Like, is that really what's happening, or are you driving this? I was hoping that they get the bug, like hoping that they it's.

Lee Elias: 29:02

Are you living through them or Do?

Mike Bonelli: 29:05

you feel you can, you can do, you feel you could pave that path easier for them, so that they can get to a point where maybe they do love it.

John Boruk: 29:12

It's funny. There's one example I can think of of a dad who did that Bob Stevenson. Bobby Ryan's father got him up at 5, 5, 30 every morning to skate every morning as a little kid and did it from like age 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and you know, and obviously Bobby Ryan was a really good player, played in the NHL second overall pick behind city Crosby, but he, that's the. That was. The one takeaway from the time that I spent with Bob Stevenson was that he had him out there five o'clock in the morning having him skate and Apparently I guess he liked it, he's, he stayed with it. But his dad also had a presence about him to where there's, there's no other option. And so, yeah, I mean, how many parents would do something like that? I don't know.

John Boruk: 30:02

But to kind of go back to your point, you know when we were younger and kids, we didn't have the distractions that the kids have now, and I'm talking about phones and gaming consoles and all of that stuff. Because Going outside and playing sports, no matter what it was sandlot, football, waffleball right, and somebody's backyard in fences you know did that, or you, or you played pick up basketball in the driveway. You know that was the social setting. And today the social setting is is put on the headphones and play Xbox, you know, and play, you know call of duty or or League of Legends, or fortnight or whatever the game is.

John Boruk: 30:45

But that's the social setting and it's it's. It's it's tearing away to where they're not going out there and just having that free, expressive play, that Unstructured play. So, because they're doing that, and then you're trying to play catch up, then you're trying to structure things. And I do this because you know, in the summer I want him to least get out there. That I'm calling up, you know, elite edge up in Malvern. I'm saying, hey, can I get him out there for an hour session on the ice because he needs to get his legs moved. So that's part of the problem. I don't think I'd be doing that if he was out here playing lacrosse with his buddies or basketball football, best.

Mike Bonelli: 31:25

But they don't do that, well, it's too hard, right, it's almost like you know, like this whole, this whole like, but I became a parent. Like this whole. Hey, we got a play date arrange. They go a play date. What the hell is my parents you like? What are you talking about? You had to arrange to go, have somebody go play with your kids. I go yeah, because kids don't just there, the cul-de-sacs are empty, the the end of the streets are vacant, like you don't see the kid. Because it is.

Mike Bonelli: 31:48

It's harder there's no doubt about it that the distractions and the ability to do something that's not physical, that doesn't take creativity, like, like they're doing that in a different way. And you know it's hard. It is hard for me. I'm the first one to say it's really hard for me to to, to accept that, that this is our reality and that, but at the same time, like, okay, well, instead of fighting it, maybe we can create something outside, like and and say, hey, like, I find myself playing with my kids all the time. Where my father never played with me Like never, because it was there was 17 other kids playing, like you know, play with your get hurt.

Lee Elias: 32:26

You know you get hurt, right, but it's like you know I'm not playing street hockey with that guy.

Mike Bonelli: 32:29

But I think, but I think it's so funny how, when I asked kids just to go out and play, I'll I guy do this all the time in my community like I'll just take a bunch of sticks and I'll go up and I'll send a little text Message hey, I'm up at the tennis court, I got a bunch of floorball sticks up here. Anyone want to come? Yeah, I do it with a cross to. We just have open night of the cross. Hey, it's a beautiful night, the sun's out, there's a bunch of balls up here, the nets are empty. And then you know, and you'll get parents being like oh, thank God, because now somebody is helping me get my kid out like you're literally doing that.

Lee Elias: 32:59

It. Can Johnny come out to play?

Mike Bonelli: 33:03

I'm the voice. I'm the voice.

John Boruk: 33:05

That's the whole key is that you're the, you're, the you're the one that spearheading this whole effort, right, nobody had a spearheaded back in the day. Well, our, our imaginations ran wild. We, we knew what to do, we figured it out. We, we knew how to cultivate games and create games and, and hey Buddies, driveways, the end zone and the other end zones over here. You made it work. You made it happen.

Lee Elias: 33:29

I'm running him and yeah right, it always ended well when I pretended to be emulous, right?

John Boruk: 33:35

So you know if you're a parent out there and you can keep your kid from having a cell phone in an Xbox until he's 13, you know hats off, good luck, that's the way to do it.

Lee Elias: 33:47

I am gonna play a little bit of devil's advocate here and I'll preface it with that. I actually agree with you guys, but there are a few things to keep in mind, and I'm speaking to our parents listening to this one. So number one is that and this started well before this, but we have to remember too that all these kids just were told for two years straight you can't go outside, you can't go play anything, you can't go to the rink. And again, no one's fault, no one asked for that. But you have a whole generation of kids who were locked up for a year and a half and we even told them to go to school on their computer, right.

Lee Elias: 34:16

So again, that's not so much directed at what you guys were saying, it's just like you know that happened and it's a little weird we don't talk about it more in society. It's just kind of we kind of moved on real quick from that, which I think is dangerous in itself. The other thing too is I would make the argument, I'm sure you guys will agree Kids are still as creative. I just think that the plane that they use, that creativity, has changed. And you know, john, you mentioned fortnight, like it's an interesting game and follow me here right. He's had to be really creative to be in that you do.

Lee Elias: 34:43

Oh sure, yeah, but you're right, you're sitting there with headphones on. I think another element of this is and I'm actually being self-reflective as a parent it is real easy as a parent when you're tired at 5 pm and they want to go on the Xbox, to just be like, yeah, go do that.

Lee Elias: 35:03

So I get some quiet and I've I've tried to be calm, I've tried to be real conscious to when I get home with my kid at least sometimes that's a practice and my son and daughter will pick up the basketball and we're very fortunate we have a basketball hoop outside her house and my first thought really is no, get inside, go shower.

Mike Bonelli: 35:20

We don't time for this, we don't time for this and I might catch myself.

Lee Elias: 35:23

I say you know what, go ahead, because I want to encourage the behavior a bit, right. But but I'm saying too that that I agree with you guys about that kids don't go out enough. I also think that as parents we are also trained a bit to to not help them go out as much, right? And also here's here's another one, john like and Mike, there was no at least from my experience, there was no massive fear in the 80s and 90s of your kid just going out and coming back when the lights went back on. I think you know now it's like I don't leave my sight, don't go too far. You know there's this, there's this probably very rational fear, to be honest, like we just know more about the world's twisted place. But I think it's a two-way street and again, I don't think you guys were not saying that, I think yeah, but there's a street right.

Mike Bonelli: 36:08

But there also was no fear growing up that you weren't gonna make it, because you didn't even think about making it, like there was no fear. There was no fear of being in town going. I can't believe that Lee's dad has him going to that power skating clinic. What the hell like I've got to do, that I should be doing that like. And then the parents that say, oh no, we're not doing anything. And all of a sudden you go to the power skating clinic and they're all there and they go.

Mike Bonelli: 36:29

Oh I, you know, oh, you know, he just decided the end, but I think it's just. But it is so funny how, you know, we've gotten to this point where and John, you brought it up like everybody's trying to keep up with you what the other guys are doing, and then it just snowballs out of control and I think, I think it's. I think we're at the point right now when we're, when we're talking about setting, like setting the standard of where, where I've got to get to and missing the boat and having an opportunity that we're in this world that we never like I don't I play some really, really good hockey players and I don't remember ever there are a group of dads sitting behind the glass saying like, oh, my god, you know, have you, have you started looking at this program? For, you know, because those four kids are going there and I need these three kids to play with these three kids so they can get a scholarship somewhere, like it just.

Mike Bonelli: 37:15

And to John, it became, it's become. You know, obviously the money, but it's gotten, it's got. Now, listen, there's no, I just saw an ad for 2018 team, right? So 2018 select team Of you know. So you think about 2011, you think young, right?

John Boruk: 37:33

Team. Did you say 2018?

Mike Bonelli: 37:36

2018 select program right.

Mike Bonelli: 37:40

This is Five, you're five years old and they're being selected, selected and and and and and groomed right for the, for the real team, which is the, which is the next year, which is the six-year-old team. So it's just, it's the pre pre-select. I can't, I can't even fathom that right. But the thing is, everyone you hang that shingle up and there'll be 75 kids at that tryout and there'll be a lot of people at that at that Invitational.

Mike Bonelli: 38:06

I do I have this conversation with lacrosse, so I run our lacrosse program in town and we have some I mean, we literally have lacrosse people in this town that are X pro lacrosse players, division one, top of the game, played at every single level, can do. They just look like they play lacrosse. Like my god, that's actually what lacrosse supposed to look like. Those guys are good and and and. They can't fathom the fact that they have to join a team that charges $4,000 to play on the team and all they're getting is a field and balls. Like that's it, the only difference, the only difference in our program and that program is.

Mike Bonelli: 38:42

I don't know what it is, maybe it's the uniforms and they get cool stickers on their helmet but there's no other. Like like that's what's? That's what's so odd about other sports to me. Like you could get better at baseball by being alone. You could get better at lacrosse by being alone. You can get better at basketball. You get great at basketball by being alone.

Mike Bonelli: 39:00

And and where hockey then becomes, it's harder and harder because of the way the sport structured and the access to ice and the access to all this other stuff. Let's do it like you can't just play pick-up hockey on your own and, and I think this, this makes our, our mentality of the sport Good and bad different. It's good and bad. I mean it's the reason why people are so passionate about hockey. Like I don't. I don't I don't see myself on the sidelines at lacrosse games, at Farsity games and stuff where I see the same like passion.

Mike Bonelli: 39:29

Like maybe in prep school level, or the kids that are, that are legitimately like kids that are on a, on a on a different track. You know to play, but I just I, I kind of earn for the day you know you're in for the days of the kids going up to a park, the kids going out in the ice, the kids going to a basketball court and just playing, and we all talk about this like how do we get back to that unstructured fun? Do it on your own kind of play and Unfortunately I can't even see it in the kids. Now the kids separate themselves like oh, where do you play? Oh, you play here. Oh, you can't play on my. I'm not. You know, it's almost like it's like I can't, you can't play with us, cuz you know you're just not.

John Boruk: 40:09

Yeah, you didn't make that team and we've almost got to the point where you know, I think the Philadelphia area's got a pretty good number of public skating facilities right.

Lee Elias: 40:19

You know what?

John Boruk: 40:20

Yeah, I got a good number. But between you know, boys ice hockey, girls ice hockey, which is exponentially growing, figure skating and and anything else you know, they make so much money off renting that by the hour that there's not really a good time to say, hey, pick up games after school four to six.

John Boruk: 40:44

It's it's like it's all rented out. You know it's it's and that that's. What's unfortunate is that it'd be kind of cool that if you know your neighborhood rink almost had a designated time after school, that hey bring the boys down here. Is this just play pickup games? Let him play pickup games.

Lee Elias: 41:00

So, john, you know, here's a good example. So the stadium in Havartown right, for those you're not nearby, it's just outside Philadelphia this is a municipal rink. It's one of the last remaining municipal rinks in the area. So for the audience says, no, they don't really need to make any money, it's run by the township. Right, that's. The rink's been paid for for years. They just instituted stick-and-puck times and open hockey times for kids and I remember those questions is anyone gonna show up? And people show up. Well, kids show up and it's all different levels and they all play together. And it's kind of inspiring because and again, this is a one one ice sheet facility.

John Boruk: 41:38

This is yeah, this is actually a rink who probably really can't can't afford to do that, right.

Lee Elias: 41:42

Right, but you took the the and again. This is this is not a shot at anybody who runs a rink, it is a business. But when they took the kind of need to make money element out of it and introduce this, they're making money because these kids are coming in and they chase the kids down and so.

Lee Elias: 41:59

So that element of being a child is there, right, and I think we're uncovering that. It's just. How are we, as really the adults in society, going to get them to see that, hey, you can be creative, right, and it doesn't know, it doesn't always have to be in hockey and we're all agreeing on that, right, it's just anything.

Mike Bonelli: 42:18

That'd be my question I love to ask, john is like, because you you talk to so many different sport parents and what's the anxiety level or what in your discussions with these folks? Like, is it possible for a parent just to go to a batting cage with a kid and not intervene? Is it possible for you know a parent to throw out 10 balls and a net up at the field and say, hey, go, go shoot. And not like, be like, oh, because I know it's so hard for me, like I'm, like I could help you here, let me help you, leave me alone.

Mike Bonelli: 42:46

Leave me alone. Like I know somebody that could help you with this. It's so hard to you know I used to. Actually, I loved and hated the parents that were able to drop their kid off at the rink and go for a run. Like I couldn't believe I'm like wait a minute, you just dropped your kid off and you're able to go work out. I said that's, that's. That doesn't seem fair to me.

John Boruk: 43:09

I drop them off and go to the pub.

Mike Bonelli: 43:14

Yeah, whatever, whatever it is, you're not, you're not over, you know you're not hanging over the glass.

John Boruk: 43:17

Yeah, no, and I think that a lot, especially if you look, I don't gather that they have that anxiety. And you know, one of the things that I think is really important especially after watching a game because way too Anxiety levels run way too high when it comes to to games is when a game is over, don't say anything, just say good job. Just say good job, had them on the shoulder, on the back, on the butt, to say hey, played a good game. Because here's the thing that the message that I think really resonates when you start to evaluate and you start to pick apart what they did, what they didn't, then they start to resent the fact that, oh geez, when the game is over, dad's gonna. You know, you can do this.

John Boruk: 44:03

They just want to go and play, you know, and if they're not doing something, well, the coach will say something, or somebody you know, or something. Let let the coach do that, right, you don't have a no right. And they know. Yeah, oh yeah, the coaches know, you know, or they'll see something. But you're so hyper focused on your kid that right, if he, if he, takes a shift off, then you're on like, yeah, you know, but you know, at the end of the second period. It just wasn't.

John Boruk: 44:32

Here's my notes Like notes, and and, and, and, and, and. Look, I get it in all. But you're not out there, man. This is your kids time and you don't know what it's like. And maybe he's got a cramp that he's not explaining. Or maybe he didn't Get enough to eat before the game and he's running on it, low on energy, or you didn't get him to bed. Who knows, it could be a combination of all of those things. All I'm saying is that you, you got to take a step back and remember that you're there for the enjoyment of watching your child play the game, and you know, look, if he wants something, if he asked for it, then yeah absolutely give it, yeah, give it, you know, say yeah, this is what I thought, but I don't think it should be one of those things and be like, you know, getting the car and stick and I'm not know.

John Boruk: 45:20

I've seen that too with parents and, just like you know, they're throwing their, their kids equipment in the car because they just got Blasted six to one. Their son didn't do anything. This, that and the other Doesn't matter, man, no one's gonna remember the game. Nobody dies, they just don't. It's, it's you know what. Let the kid process it, let them sort of. They don't need you to compound All of their anxiety of having because they've already heard it from the coaches you know they're teammates.

John Boruk: 45:48

They see me yeah they talk on the bench. Everybody knows. You know what a bad perform Performance of six one losses. It doesn't need to be further escalated when you get in the car.

Lee Elias: 46:00

No, if anything, John, you need to be the safe place for your kid after a game. You need to be the comfort place. You know I was very fortunate to have two great parents. It's like I was always safe at home and and I knew that and it was a gift. As I got older I realized how much, because not every kid on my team felt that way. Some of it was a nightmare when the game ended. You know the other thing too Just because one of the most popular episodes we've ever done it's in the top five was titled the car ride is not for coaching, right, yeah and.

Lee Elias: 46:30

I've done this little experiment with my own son who's nine, and it's. It's funny when you dive into this. I Purposely right and not purpose. I don't talk about the game usually after the game, unless he asks. Like you said and I said to myself, I'm gonna just do a few car rides and just see.

Lee Elias: 46:45

Let me see the first thing he brings up, right, like you know, cuz usually a little quiet after the game, good or bad, sometimes a little more rambunctious, but I'd say nine times out of ten it's a video game or or Something that has nothing to do with hockey. And I've actually gotten to my, my myself, to a place where that's kind of a relief, because you just said I might be holding on to something that had my son's a goal. So I might be holding on to something that I really want to talk to him about. Right, it's never negative at this age, but I'm like, oh man, I really want to talk to him about it's posting up and making a good seal. He's like, hey, so yeah, dad, I saw this fortnight thing coming out and it's like a reminder to me like you'll leave shut up, you know, like, like he's got to enjoy the the time, like it's almost admirable how quickly he can move past it right.

John Boruk: 47:35

And we can't. Yeah, the kids, kids, within 30 minutes late, as I said, they're, they're back on on snapchat. You know it's amazing, it's it's, you know it's out and it's an outer space at that point. But yeah, more to the points, what I sometimes, what I will bring up in the car, is the positive. I'll sit there and say, man, I love that pass. I know you guys had scored, but that's, that's really good vision. And to think, to be selfless, or the back check that that may have saved a potential goal. Little things like that, I think, are worthy of bringing up, just so that they know you're paying attention and and you're reinforcing the little things that they should be doing all the time. Because look, when you're 9 to 11, 12, it's the kid who scored. Oh, you know, it was Frankie who scored four goals and, and, and, and. Oh, he tried the Michigan, you know, I mean like I see tried the Michigan.

John Boruk: 48:31

But the game of hockey is won or lost by doing the little things that nobody talks about. So be the parent to talk about, right, I'll talk about the little things that nobody else wants to talk about, because those are the things that win hockey games. Those are the things that are gonna get your kid to playing junior hockey, you know, when they're at the age of 16, potentially college hockey. And then you know who knows beyond that, because, look, everybody wants to be Alex Ovechkin, everybody wants to be the great goal scorer, everybody wants to do who's the kid with. You know, at plays for the Anaheim, ducks Zegras. You know Travis Zegras, all the great fancy moves, that's great. But guess what? For every one of those, there's seven or eight guys who, who are just the bust your butt. Yeah, hard workers back check, do the little things that have to be done. That that's how they got. It's how they got to. Where they are is by doing all of those things that you know Nobody talks about them.

Lee Elias: 49:30

Yeah, and I would make you all good, too, that we talk about all the time about that, that, that 00001% of guys, that the Ovechkins, the Crosby's, the McDavids, and they put that work in too. So, however you slice it, you know. But yeah, look, there's nothing wrong with being a fourth-line grinder in the NHL. You're still one of the greatest hockey players that's ever lived, if you even you know. So this I'm just keeping an eye on the time here I did want to talk about about your podcast, because I've been listening to it. I think you're doing a great job Again. It's called raising a champion. For those you listening, pause right now. Go subscribe to that real quick. Make sure you come back, though. I'll just leave.

Lee Elias: 50:06

Oh yeah, all right, and I wanted to ask you a what spawn that and I'm gonna kind of combine it with this too, because you've had some amazing guests on that show. I wanted to know are there any Congruencies that you see amongst the guests? It's like, wow, okay, everyone kind of agrees with this thought. Or is there like a moment on the show that you had that was just a light bulb or between the eyes moment that you're like why, I really need to share this message?

John Boruk: 50:32

Yeah, no, I mean that's good. I mean I try to hit on so many different aspects. You know, field hockey is popular up here. La Crosse obviously is big here in the Mid-Atlantic area. I haven't done as much, just football or baseball. You can go back to Texas for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've also tried to get into areas like nutrition.

John Boruk: 50:57

I had a nutritionist who actually wrote a book specific to kids sports nutrition for kids. What do they need? How do they fuel their bodies? Right, because if you're on the road at a tournament, everybody can relate we're going to Chick-fil-A, we're going to pick up McDonald's, we're going to pick up Chick-fil-A. What can we do? Because I've watched so many documentaries that you put that stuff that's got so much saturated fat and oil in there that that slows down performance. I mean I know when my son is playing a double header. They're playing a game at 11, or 10, and another one at 3, and they've got that gap where they're going to eat lunch. I know exactly how they're going to play at 3 and 4. I've seen it every single time. What can you do in that gap to where you can sort of refuel them and recharge them? Because I think that nutrition is almost as big of a deal as getting on the ice and shooting pucks and all that. It's all part of it. It's like you divide the pie of what are the important elements of creating a great athlete. That's a big one too. I've been talking to more people like that. And it's not just drinking water, it's making sure that you're putting more sodium, because you're sweating out sodium. You need to replenish your body with sodium. There's been a lot of guests. There's been some little tidbits along the way. The Goudreau's is really good because we all know Johnny Goudreau.

John Boruk: 52:32

I thought early on I was able to get Brian Boucher, who I worked with, and Brian Coates. I remember going out and watching his son Tyler when he was 13, never thinking that he was going to be a top 10, top 15 NHL pick like he was. Brian wasn't that way as a coach. Brian just kind of put his hands behind and just sort of watched him. When there was a stoppage in play then he would kind of coach him. But he wasn't a real loud, boisterous type of coach. It's always good to hear.

John Boruk: 53:08

And then, more than anything, the one thing that stood out about Brian Boucher when I had him on talking about his son was that I think it was either a fractured wrist or a maybe it was a collar bone. That's what it was. He fractured his collar bone and he was kind of like being the big tough dad. He just got to play through it. Play through it. It's like, yeah, it's really sore. I know he's got to grind it. It was the one moment where he felt like that. He was like, oh geez, now I feel like a really bad dad because here I am, I'm telling him to grind it out and the kid's got a legit injury. He's broken collar bone. There's a lot of little things like that. Karen Corbett, the Penn La Crosse coach and it really became the kind of the central focus of that episode was she just says you don't see very many leaders anymore, kids that know how to lead. How do you develop leaders? How do you instill those values and those leadership abilities in a kid that's 16, 17, 18, 19 years old?

John Boruk: 54:17

That's something else that I'd like to explore. She talked a little bit in that episode when I had her on.

Lee Elias: 54:27

It's funny to bring that subject up too, because we talk about how there's a lot more information now about bullying and about pressure. Part of the conversation I think gets lost is the ability to push someone else in the right way as part of leadership. The one that comes to my mind right now is just Nate McKinnon. After they won the cup a couple of years ago, there was a lot of just gotcha journalism of well, he is so mean to his teammates and he's so rude to his kids. They kept going and finally his teammates came out the avalanche. They're like shut up. We need that. We need the guy that's going to push us.

Lee Elias: 55:06

We need the guy that's going to yell at us when we don't finish the drill. Look, you mentioned it. All the greats, jordan Bryant they demanded that from their teammates. There's part of the leadership there that I think that I'm not saying we've gone soft, but we have to shed light on that too, that it's okay to push a teammate the right way. It's okay to be pushed too. Here ask this.

John Boruk: 55:32

It's kind of a doable two-part question. Do you want to be a leader? Do you want to be a friend? You want to be a friend. More than often you're not going to be a leader, because a leader is going to ask you to do something that you probably don't. That may be unpopular I mean, they're not always the popular person in the room but they're determined to be a leader.

John Boruk: 55:51

They see things and they're demanding of things. Friends are going to sit there and if you're complaining about this or complaining of that, they're just going to chirp on with you. They're going to pile on. You're like oh yeah, this sucks. That sort of thing Leaders don't see it. They see it in a whole different reflection. They're not always going to take the popular opinion. They're going to find a way to present it differently. It's really cultivating a different mindset than what a lot of these kids are.

John Boruk: 56:24

One thing that I do want to add parents, it's very easy at hockey games youth hockey games, the second that one team gets called for three penalties. You start chirping the rest. You'll see it every single game. One thing that I think you have to be really cognizant about is that the kids on the bench here you're chirping, you're here complaining about the referees. Then they're going to think it's okay that if they lose four to two or five to three, well, the reason we lost is because of the rest. You guys were complaining about the rest the whole time. Now it becomes the nice, easy excuse. You don't ever want to make that excuse because there's no lesson to be learned in that Now you can easily defer away from your own mistakes and you don't have to critique your own performance because now you have an automatic out.

John Boruk: 57:17

I think that all starts with the parents. Aside from the fact that these people are making nothing and they're kids and they're just learning, these games really don't mean anything. Look, we're talking about college NCAA championships. That's one thing. This is youth hockey. That, at that level, doesn't mean anything. That don't get boisterous when it comes to the referees. Penalties. That, because you know it bleeds over and the kids hear it. And then they're going to think well, if you're complaining about it, I can complain about it.

Mike Bonelli: 57:50

Well, it is funny at the higher levels it gets more civil. The higher you get, the more these athletes and professionals can speak to each other in ways. Again, it gets heated, no doubt about it, but it gets in a way. I think a lot of my feeling about this is that if you want great leaders, then you have to model good leadership, and I just don't think we have a lot of good models. We allow winning coaches to model poor behavior. We allow good hockey players to model poor behavior. We allow parents to lose their minds in the stands and then let them back into the stands again. So I think that modeling goes such a long way in every sport that I've involved in, and I think a person like me who tries to be a leader because I'm leading, like I have to be the leader, like somebody has to make a decision here, guys. And since I'm leading the program, I guess I'll make the decision.

Mike Bonelli: 58:42

And it's never the most popular decision, because it's easy to be a mom and dad sucking down a couple of beers under a tent in the summer and have a comment, but somebody has to say, hey, listen, this isn't great, we probably shouldn't be drinking in front of the kids and why don't you take this somewhere else and go do this?

Mike Bonelli: 59:03

Or hey, we probably shouldn't use that language with this group. You could do that if you were in your own car and you want to do this with your own kid. That's different. But I think this issue of and we've seen it now in sports, like in silent Sundays and soccer and days where we've asked officials to introduce themselves and literally have to get to a point where they have a card and have to read the card like hi, my name is Mike. I'd like to say let's have a great contest today. I'm not going to take you know, this is where the threshold is, and I used to joke on the time as a youth coach, like everybody's bitching about the officials, I go hey, listen, they're bad officials as we are as coaches.

John Boruk: 59:40

We're all bad, we're all bad at this, and we're all learning, so let's all learn together.

Mike Bonelli: 59:45

But I just think it's, I think it really comes down to and, Lee, we talk about it a lot too right and even with the people we talk to, it's just the modeling, it's the ability to. If you're going to be, it's hard, it is. And we talk to our kids. When you talk to your teenager, right, it's hard to be a good person Like, it's hard to be the person that steps up and say, hey, that's not really the right thing we should be doing right now. So a lot easier just to go along with the crowd. Mike.

Lee Elias: 1:00:09

I think the keyword that's like the lessons that we need to learn more. The keyword is accountability. And from a societal level, we have lost touch with the meaning of that word and it gets worse, I think, every year. I don't mean to be dystopian or anything like that, but the lack of accountability. And, john, this goes back to what you said.

Lee Elias: 1:00:28

When I'm coaching kids, first off, when I'm coaching anybody, the rule on the benches you don't even talk to the ref. That's my job as the coach and I always say if you want to beat the refs, score more goals, that's something we can control. You know what I mean. But you have to be accountable to the point of you don't want to be in a position that a referee can control the game, accidentally or not, right? So I try and teach accountability. I really try and teach the definition of that word.

Lee Elias: 1:00:55

I think there are levels to accountability. I think that's something people miss. It's not so much you're accountable or you're not. A lot of this comes down to the language. Do you say, after you got scored, you screwed up? Do you say, we screwed up? Are you looking for a solution together? Right, there's levels to this that, as a coach, I feel like it's my duty to teach that. Right, if you have an accountable team and I'm not just talking hockey, I mean a giant broadcasting my God, if you have an accountable team, you're going to have a good outcome. Right, every, mostly every time. If you have people pointing fingers, it's gonna become a nightmare. I don't get how talented you are. Yeah, I think we need to get back to more of a culture of accountability.

John Boruk: 1:01:35

Yeah, and I think is what's really important, the thing that I've really tried to focus on with a kid who's playing at this level, just to be as objective about my kid as I possibly can and to know his strengths and to know his weaknesses and to sit there and because At some point, you're gonna feel that your kids been slighted. It could be because of ice time, it could be because he didn't make a certain team. You know, this is the, this is the year for the 2011's that they're playing in the the Pee Wee Qua back tournament. So Players are gonna be chosen over other players for whatever reasons or there's politics that go into it. And when my son got cut, I actually made a list of all the players and I had him probably in that bottom third. So I knew that and I was looking at it very objectively, knowing the other kids, knowing their abilities, knowing that they had been with this program longer, knowing that you know that is very possible that he was gonna. He was on that fence and that's something like this could happen, and I wanted him to just think that, look, there's, there's no guarantees here. You still got to go out, you still have to do this. So I think it's very, and what happens is is that when things don't go your way, being the player and the parent, it's very easy to say, well, you're better than that kid. That's, that's me, yes, or that didn't happen.

John Boruk: 1:03:02

I Think it's really important to try to put it in into perspective as much as you can and to try to be objective about what your kids doing, because, look, you don't have to have the best shot. You know, you know you don't, but if he's not exuding effort, he's not giving the most effort. That's the one thing that you can't control. You, you know they can control your effort, how hard you play, what good of you know, how good of a teammate you are, those things. And so I always look at that and say you know when you as good in those areas, because if you weren't, you know you're given, you're given coaches or you're giving people a reason to not select you right. So you know, because you see it, parents will always say that you know where do you think your kid stacks up and you know they'll have them up here, when they're probably down here, and Mike, mike loves that one, but it's.

John Boruk: 1:03:56

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's. They need a reality check and sometimes and that's one thing- it's a gift, john.

Lee Elias: 1:04:05

It's a painful gift, but it's a gift. Look, look. We talked up before about the ROI. The ROI is these life lessons. All right, john, there's no way you got to where you got in broadcasting by constantly going. Well, I should have had that anchoring job. I should have been that guy that I might have motivated. You might have thought that, but you didn't. It wasn't a crutch, right? Yeah, I'm speaking out of turn for you here. My point is in real life, we all know this. Right, the person who just points fingers isn't gonna go too far. Right, the person you know what. That guy worked harder than me and he's better than me. And now I can control what I'm gonna put in, the time I'm gonna put in to get better at these skill sets or at this, because I want to be there. We're not.

John Boruk: 1:04:47

Yeah, but even to and that's it's right even to that point. Let's say that that kid that did make it Doesn't work harder and you do, but you know he may be more talented right now. Sure, sure, you're, you'll eventually pass it. You continue to do the right things. You continue to Out be have it. You did to preach to your child that you have to outwork them. You will pass the talented kids that.

John Boruk: 1:05:13

I'm just telling you those Little things, that what I was talking about early, that don't get talked about Amongst the parents and the bleachers because you don't have that great shot where you can pick a corner. It doesn't matter if you continue to be the hardest working player, who plays the right way, who plays selfless, you know, looks to make that extra pass. You still I'm still, you know, 12 year olds. They've been playing this game now for five, six years. 95% of them don't make that extra pass that they could make. You you're, you have the type of kid that can do that. They will eventually rise to the top, I can promise you mom and yeah, and it's and it's really at any of these sports it.

Mike Bonelli: 1:05:56

They're all good like these kids. When they get to 18, 19 year old there is, there's such a fine line To any kid that makes it and doesn't make it. They're all good like you. Look at kids. I've seen guys in mensley. I'm like man, where'd you play? Goes I. I stopped playing in high school. You know I got my god.

Mike Bonelli: 1:06:12

You're like the best player out like you know, because they're just they, it's just little things, it's the little, it's the motivation, it's the, the commitment, it's the hey you can't have. You know, I used to joke with our teams like I can't have six first line centermen, like somebody has to position, like, like so well, I'm better than that kid, I know, but that kid was not able to play any other position. They couldn't do anything else, they could only do this. And I have five of those kids already.

Lee Elias: 1:06:36

We see it.

Mike Bonelli: 1:06:37

I run a couple of Quebec team tryouts and or you know, I'm involved in the selection process and I can't tell you how many kids don't make those teams that are better than anybody else. You know that that did, and but there's certain kids that need to make it because you need certain players to play. When you go to a tournament, when you go to a game, and just knowing, like hey, this kid it's the same reason why players get picked on proteins right, like hey, I know this kid, this guy is really good, this kid is a really phenomenal player. But are they gonna be, are they gonna be able to accept the role that they're not gonna get on the ice every shift like, can they play the role I need them to play? And Sometimes, you know it's the reason why you know players as free agents go certain places and don't like, hey, can you, if you're a pitcher, can you, can you resort to being a two-inning guy, like is? Are you gonna accept that or you're gonna be a bitter, you know, frustrated athlete and Parents don't get to see the coach, the GM, the people making these teams.

Mike Bonelli: 1:07:32

Maybe we have to do all a better job of describing what we're looking for and why the teams are picked, but the other day a parent needs to say, listen, this is the team they're picking. I think objectively we can say you're better than so-and-so and so-and-so, but there's a reason why they picked them and you know. Maybe we could find out why, or we could find out where you were, you know, deficient. But a lot of times it's gonna be like and I did college tryouts all the time like, listen, I love you, I think you're a great player. You just don't. You just you're never gonna accept the fact that You're not in the power play. I know it, you're just not gonna accept it. And you're not gonna be on this power play because I have seven other guys that are gonna be on this power play and since you're not gonna accept that, I can't have you in the locker room Bitchin and moan and undermining me saying that you should be on the power play. So you you're you.

John Boruk: 1:08:17

I'm still waiting for the first 12 year old just to embrace being a penalty killer. I have not found.

Mike Bonelli: 1:08:23

I was a great panel kill. I used to love that. Please tell me, take another 10 minutes on that, please.

John Boruk: 1:08:31

No one ever talks like man I. I love playing on the penalty.

Mike Bonelli: 1:08:34

I've now heard a kid at this level, at the PUE level, say I really love playing on the penalty kill, but you need those players as much as you need the five out there on the power play, probably even more so and that's what's great About athletes, right, and in your profession, and broadcasting, right, you can't you listen, everybody can't be in front of the camera, everybody can't be interviewing, somebody has to, like you know, plug the damn thing in and get the satellite, you know, figured out like so there's, there's roles for everyone and that's, I think, what Lee's point is right that sport is supposed to be teaching us all of these great things and Sometimes we lose the fact that that's what.

Mike Bonelli: 1:09:07

That's what sport is at any, in any sport, and it's it's. It is, you know, it's great when you see it happening. You know in a positive way, because that's the funnest part about this is like, oh my god, like you really made something of this, because you embraced who you were, what your role could be and being the best at that role, and that's really that's like a great lesson to your kids, I think yeah, yeah, I would 100% agree with that.

John Boruk: 1:09:33

Yeah, and you know I, there's so much video out there. You know I know the kids like watching Connor Badaard and how great he is Connor McDavid, it's so fun to watch. But the one thing, my favorite player and I don't know if there ever be somebody that will surpass this for me my favorite player and the player, the NHL player that I like to show my son and other players the way that he played the game was pavlet that soup. Because not only was he flashy we all love the place hands, his hands but he was what he probably could have reeled off a hundred point seasons you know five or had five or six but because he was so dedicated to playing so sound defensively and how well he he, how hard he played for such being a small guy and how he used his stick and and created takeaways and stuff.

John Boruk: 1:10:24

All you gotta do is just go on to YouTube and look up Pavlet that soup hundred greatest players and that video reel of how he would play defense and just pick guys pockets. It just really was something. That that is. You still see it. You know you like that. You hope that more players at these younger levels will take a pride in playing that way, because that's the way that the game has to be played.

Lee Elias: 1:10:45

I Totally agree, john and I'm gonna say this too that I was spot-on about having less questions today, because we had a fantastic discussion today and we've kept you off for over an hour and I think we could do another hour, but but I'm we're there.

Mike Bonelli: 1:10:59

Were there any questions in there?

Lee Elias: 1:11:03

Discussion. But look, john, first off I just want to thank you again for giving us some time For the whole listening audience. Again. His podcast, this title, raising a champion. I highly recommend it. If you like our show, you will love his show, so please give him a follow. And, john, I'll give you the last word before I close it out. Again, this has been a fantastic conversation.

John Boruk: 1:11:23

Yeah, it's First off. I'm so glad that you guys have a podcast like this. Our kids play hockey. It's, it's really cool and I'm seeing more and more of these, and I that's.

John Boruk: 1:11:35

I spent a lot of my time just listening to podcasts, but you know, I guess a lot. The thing that I would like to go out on is just Don't get caught up at the age of five and six and seven. To my hockey it really doesn't matter, it's about having fun. Here's what I'm gonna say. You're not gonna create an NHL superstar at the age of six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, but you can certainly burn them out of the game and that's to me, the bigger takeaway is Make sure that you're creating an environment that's instilling passion, like that they want even more, instead of sort of Robbing them of that energy, because it's a long process, like it.

John Boruk: 1:12:24

What if you're a parent and you got a kid that's now seven and eight and you're like I think he's got potential, potential potential? You're not gonna know that. You're really not gonna know that till another seven or eight, nine years. They start to hit puberty. It because the whole thing changes. Enjoy the ride early on, you know. Teach them to be a good teammate. That's when you can start instilling, you know, leadership qualities, because they're they're actually listening at that point.

John Boruk: 1:12:49

Once they get to be like 11, 12, 13, they start to tune you out, you know. So when they're young kids, that's when you can start feeding them little nuggets and little things that they can take with them, because they'll remember that. You know the kids are sponges at that age and so that's a. That's a good age to where. Don't worry so much about the hockey, but teach them little things to be good teammates.

John Boruk: 1:13:13

You know, because they're gonna be playing, especially at the might level. They're gonna be playing with kids who are falling over their laces. You know, for the most part, encourage them. You know I do take pride in the fact that my son tried to get every single kid on. That is my team involved and the game is frustrating, as it may have been, but it's my hockey man. You know, if you you can, you can be a really you can really teach your kid a lot of life lessons. And in that age group and it's not about wins, losses, it's not about how many goals they score, it's about none of that, it's just about going out there having fun, creating an experience for not only you, but for everybody on that team.

Lee Elias: 1:13:52

Well, john, I'll tell you, our target audience, our main audience, is that age group, and I think that's a great note to end on. And I'll say this to the listeners If you like what he just said, go check out raising a champion. You can listen to wherever podcast heard. You can also listen our podcast out.

Lee Elias: 1:14:06

Yeah yeah, podcast heard, but for Mike Bonnelli, john Boreg, I'm Leo Elias, everyone. Thank you so much for listening this episode. We will see you next week. Have a great time with your kids skate on. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our kids play hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value. Wherever you're listening whether it's a podcast network, a Social media network or our website our kids play hockey comm. Also, make sure to check out our children's book when hockey stops at when hockey stops Com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our kids play hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.