[00:00:00] John Boruk: Hello again and welcome into the podcast that deals directly with the challenges of youth sports and how we can improve the overall experience for everybody involved. Thanks for being with us. I'm your host, John Bork. If this is your first time, thanks for joining us and thanks for checking us out. If you're a returning listener we're glad you're back and hopefully you've found it somewhat informative and entertaining at the same time.

Our current episode with PGA Club Professional, Dave McNabb, is currently up and running. You can check that out and hear from Dave about how he didn't even start playing golf until he was into his mid twenties and how he developed into a PGA Club professional playing in some of the biggest major champ.

In the world that is up and running as we speak. So with that being said if you're with us make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. That's gonna help us move up the charts. If you like it, hey, we want to hear from you. Write us a review. You don't have to say much, just a couple of words.

It's great. Send us a free review. You don't like it. Review it as well. We want all of your criticisms and critiques. Send it all to us, but it either [00:01:00] way it lets us know that you're out there, you're listening you're involved, and it helps us move up the charts as well. Our guest forward this week's podcast is somebody who has certainly been involved in eSports for a very long time, is a retired lawyer, but in the same time he's also founded a couple of non-profit organiz.

Get psyched sports.org and end abusive coaching.org are the initiatives that he has started in an effort to improve youth sports in the public square, in the public public school system as well as we welcome in, Mitch Lyons into raising a champion. Hello, Mitch. How are you? 

[00:01:39] Mitch Lyons: Americans across the country very well, and thanks for having me.It's privilege to be here. 

[00:01:43] John Boruk: Yeah, absolutely. And we're glad that you are with us. The mission of Get psych sports.org as listed on the webpage, is to advance a model of high school and youth sports to, to really, to help empower students more than. From a social and emotional learning standpoint [00:02:00] at what point did you get to that, that, that stage where the current model of whether it was, at the middle school level, the elementary school, the high school level, where the current model.

Was somewhat broken and it needed to be improved. And you decided that you wanted to step in because I, before I get to all of that, you've had over 25 years of coaching experience, so you've seen it firsthand, especially at the high school level. The way that coaching has evolved over the.

[00:02:32] Mitch Lyons: March 18th. Actually, it hasn't evolved, and I think that's the point of our discussion today. It's still the same sports model that we first started in 1903 in New York City with a fellow who was the first physical activity director of the New York City public schools. Don't forget, high schools were very small.[00:03:00] 

And it hasn't evolved since I, I have a picture in my computer of 1903. The very first Cadillac produced, which was a coop. Of course, it had open everything. This fly out. Of course there's no seat belts, there's no, there's all kinds of advances in that car. But we're still driving the old 1, 1903.

We have an improved our model, which is an institutionalized. Power imbalance between coaches and students. And when you have all powerful anyone and you have voiceless anyone, you are set the table for abuse. And that happens all too frequently. Not all of them make headlines of courts thank God contaminated, but there's enough of them, and I've been around and.

As I [00:04:00] call around, I ask people, oh yeah I was emotionally abused. Leaders actually on our website under support, there's a fellow there that actually admits that and he is one of the, great thinkers in Massachusetts and, president of a think tank. Now every. And you find that people who play sports have either witnessed or have experienced emotional abuse and it hasn't evolved.

Since 1903, and we're trying to say, if you had a written curriculum based in sports psychology, social emotional learning, all behavioral sciences, really they are all. A hundred years old teaching us how to achieve. We're in a public school and I think they ought to be teaching those scientific skills instead of using this old model where there's a terribly [00:05:00] miscommunication be what the roles.

And what main message on every team do we want to promote? Because one tariff once said to me, whenever my kid goes on a sports team, it's a crapshoot. I never know what's gonna happen because it's all coach dependent. 

[00:05:19] John Boruk: So when we're talking about abuse are we talking about? And all I can do is really draw on my experiences as a child going up growing up through the public school.

From elementary school all the way through high school or my kids and ask them questions and answers in regards to what they're going through. And a lot of obviously their extracurricular activity and the sports that they play is gonna come more at the club level or outside of the school system.

So when you talk about abuse, are we talking about a physical abuse? Are we talking about a mental abuse? What is the most prevalent form of abuse when it comes to what we're talking: Sports through the educational process? 

[00:05:58] Mitch Lyons: It's a great [00:06:00] question. Because like most abuse, it's hidden and the people who are the victims are shame and don't want to come out in public.

It's not their fault, of course. But it's still a avenue. Getting actual hard statistics is probably impossible. But I can tell you, and I think a lot of your viewers know this, but they've seen instances. Of coaches yelling at students, it could be horrible or it could be mild. To me that is probably the most prevalent because most coaches are well-meaning well-intentioned.

Love the sport, love kids, but they let their temper maybe get ahead of them occasionally. What is not realized is that there's a whole area of neuroscience about the bullied brain that's the name of a book that a friend [00:07:00] of mine wrote that I appeared on a podcast with, and all kinds of tough things happen to the brain when you get shamed embarrassed.

And some of them are traumatizing for a life. And I've heard plenty of coaches say, ah, let 'em grow up. That's the real world. True. It is definitely the real world. But to withstand all of those pressures and anxieties and depressions that are part of the real world, they need. Slash that's how they cope.

Coping skills. So I think I see sports as a great avenue to actually teach that and not be extra curriculum if you wanna discuss that. That's because of classism. And then early 19 hundreds because we're in that same model and people who worked with their hands just weren't as bright as people who worked behind the desk.

[00:08:00] So the thinking went in that society. Even when I went to college, get ready in the sixties you heard the term dumb. All the time. Yeah. 

[00:08:11] John Boruk: And it, yeah, and it applied because those who excelled in sports were typically not considered, highly intellectual or intelligent when it came to the academic aspect.

[00:08:22] Mitch Lyons: Because probably they were spending five hours a day playing sports and actually not studying like the rest of the population is doing because, especially today in colleges. But that feeling, that bias. It carries through in what we do say all the way into history.

This is what some people want not to talk about, but history defines us, right? We are what our experiences are per both personal and national. 

[00:08:53] John Boruk: So you're based in the Boston area. So I wanna presume that, maybe in the northeast we're, we broadcast here [00:09:00] outside the Philadelphia area in Mid-Atlantic.

So we're relatively close. But is the prevalence, is it so widespread that this is nationwide? In, in your initiatives and some of these the nonprofits that you run, do you hear about. All across the country, west coast, southwest, Midwest down in the south. Is this prevalent no matter where you go, and are you trying to advocate for more actual written policy or something that is tangible that you, that they can, actu, can put into practice?

So in other words, perhaps there's a written curriculum, perhaps if there's Let's say a rule book, but there's something that can hold whoever these coaches are and whatever the administration is accountable for the fact that really there's, as you say, we've been relying on the same model of athletics and how we coach athletics and how we teach athletics, at least through the public school system for the past 100 years 

[00:09:54] Mitch Lyons: This afternoon, that's, everything you just said and you make a lot of [00:10:00] interesting points there.

So many that it's gonna be hard for me to remember them all. . But one of the one, but one of the ones that you asked me about was it is prevalent all over. If you go into high school coach abuse, you put that in the Google alerts. You get the articles all over. This is from one's from Oklahoma One's.

It's hard to tell when you do One's from Pennsylvania. They're all over. I'm looking at these headlines. Hinton High School coach arrested for allegedly grabbing students throat. Former coach and teacher accused of sexually assaulting children faces, charges people Police arrest Hinton High school wrestling coach, accused of child abuse basketball coach.

It goes on and on. I I've got right here about 15 articles, and these are all over. Some of them are repeats, written by other outlets, but most of them are, are new and different [00:11:00] everyone. And they come across my desk usually daily and so yes, it's all over. And that we allow it for so many different reasons.

It's really it shouldn't, it's the public school's job to keep up with science in almost every other aspect of school. They do. But because someone deemed an extracurricular back in the early 19 hundreds, especially during the blue era of sports in the twenties that's a hundred years ago they said this was extra, this didn't involve curricular.

Now, interestingly, they used to. I joined in physical education, which was a subject matter dear near and dear to medical doctors who were just discovering in the late 1880s the amazing benefits [00:12:00] of health and physical health. And exercise, and it was the rage. It's when parks came about, recreation parks, all over the country.

It's when the boys and girls Dubs started, it's when the YMCA started, and this was all based because of a movement called Muscular Christianity. Year old and it was Teddy Roosevelt is the perfect example. He grew up in a muscular Christian House. Strenuous activity was good. Physical health was good.

Assertive boarding on aggressiveness was good. Football was the be all and end all. That's all out of this. Movement of men asserting themselves in the church. ? Yeah. You ready for this? Because of the Seneca Falls 1848 Women's Convention and featuring all of the great leaders [00:13:00] demanding equal rights for women back then, and we

So this is, it's also interconnected. It follows a flow like all of history. And we're here today because a lot of the things discovered then and believed then, like eugenics believing, one race is superior to another. Was very prevalent. Roosevelt believed it. Teddy Roosevelt. So there's there's a lot to grasp in why we are in this position.

Big question is what do we do with that? 

[00:13:37] John Boruk: Before we get there, but before, yeah, before we embark on this I kind I look, I, and I do want to, because when I was playing in, in, I grew up in Texas playing high school football, and they take it very seriously down there. And that's fine.

And look, coaches would if you didn't execute the drill to their standard, sometimes they would grab you by the face mask and they would yell at. [00:14:00] And look I think that there's a fine line to where sometimes I think that I think it toughened me up as a kid and I don't look at any of this and I can't really necessarily put point my finger to say there's one incident or one episode where that was clearly.

I felt like that sports, and if you're gonna play a contact sport something that is look, you could get hurt on any given play. Did they cross the line? I don't really know, but I, sometimes I wonder what is that fine line? Is it abuse or do you just need tough love and do you just need someone to take a hardcore approach?

When it comes to the execution or tackling or whatever the sport may be. That's the part that I think even today by today's standards, that we struggle with an emergency contact.  

[00:14:51] Mitch Lyons: I think that's accurate, what you just said. We definitely struggle with what's the fine line, but I think that we audit in [00:15:00] public schools with public.

For public education, we ought to be taking the science view. And the science view is that generally people perform better in positive, safe, and supportive atmospheres. That's the science and to allow school employees, whether volunteer or not yell at children is anti-science urgent in our community.

Tough love is, a term that. I wanna wise crack that there's nothing tough about love, it's respect and kindness and listening to other people. And so this authoritative approach was taught in the early 1900s because most of the city kids were gonna go and work in factories. And they had to obey what was told, and that was true within the office workers as [00:16:00] well.

That was the mentality and all. So they were training and business was very involved. Education in the late 18 hundreds and they wanted people to be career ready. And this was a way to teach it Also the co-founder of the, of. Public school, athletic league in New York City in 1903 was General Windgate from the Civil War.

He wanted sports to teach marksmanship as well, which is a sport of course. Yeah. But his thought was, we, obedience was viewed as a Lancaster if you were obedient, but that's not what human resources departments want now. They want critical thinkers, problem solvers, decision makers and you know what?

[00:16:51] John Boruk:  Yeah. And I agree with that 100%. And I did come up through an arrow where you weren't allowed to question anything. [00:17:00] The coach gave you a play. They gave you an order they gave. They did whatever it was, whatever they mandated or something, you were to follow it and not question it.

And I always thought that was, to some degree, unhealthy because as you're, you're a 10, 12, 14, even into high school years you start to think for yourself, And if you say look, hey, maybe I'm out there, out on the field. If there's a better way of doing something, wouldn't you want to hear my input?

Wouldn't you wanna say, Hey, this is what I'm seeing from the players out there. You're not on out on the field. And so it did it would leave student athletes with really no voice to express what they see it. Carry out my commands or you'll find yourself on the bench. And that to me was not healthy because I think that you really to cultivate a true a, a true outlet where of success, everybody has to be a voice.

And it seems like that's one of the things that you have been advocating through, especially through your get psych sports.org is that. Let [00:18:00] these kids who can practice problem solving and decision making through a voice and through coaching, that's receptive to that. 

[00:18:09] Mitch Lyons: Yeah, it gives them permission to speak, sets an atmosphere where it's not just comments about we're doing, but ideas that you have.

The teams that I've coached. We not all of them because I was always in assistant because I was earning a living at the time doing practicing law, but also coaching and we didn't, when I coached on our own, I would encourage players to come up with ideas to study. So I see so many coaches were, bench sitters, they weren't stars. They were observing. All about sport and we're highly interested and motivated in it. I just wanna finish up with the idea of the tough look. Don't get me wrong, if I hold a gun to somebody's head, forbid, I will motivate them to do whatever I want. [00:19:00] But that's not education. 

[00:19:02] John Boruk: That's fear-based motivation. 

[00:19:02] Mitch Lyons: And when people are yelling and I, it becomes a norm. The norm in sports is for a football coach to grab the face mask and, have the player look like a cartoon at the end. We're going around. And it's such an obvious message of I control you. You can't do anything without me.

This attitude in place people to step even further, and that's where you see the physical. But what I think more widespread, of course, is the emotional, and you can see it in almost any field, I'm promoting this legislation, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. But I start off a conversation with the chief of staff who you must talk to if you really want, keep the legislative.

The legislator to vote for your bill. Do you ever play sports? So I've made a, I would say about 25 calls [00:20:00] so far, and I have already have eight people who said, oh yeah, I had a terrible experience. It's just go on TikTok in the search bar and put in sports, contribute and see all of the things. You took the life out of my sport.

My love of the sport is gone. The pub, it's just heartbreaking to look at all of these traumas when sports should be like this joyful experience. And it is. I played, basketball full court between two and three times a week until I was 65 years. I love competition. I love banging bodies underneath.

I don't know why, but I did and had a wonderful time. As a friend of mine said, every game's a blessing. And I've never replaced basketball. I haven't been able to physically, but I think competition is terrific if we [00:21:00] take joy in it. Yeah. Yeah. And I we're just saying ourselves again, other people is, it's highly rewarding when you are successful and it can be, the agony of the.

[00:21:17] John Boruk: So you've probably have looked at this and I think it all starts because you at a very early age and really what you're doing at it, no, nobody's. Nobody's getting college scholarships at, at coming up through elementary school. But what you're doing is trying to cultivate a love for athletics and a love for sports, and a love for anything with physical activity.

And so I harken back to my days in, in elementary school. Back then they had the mini Olympics. It was like a track and field and you went out there and you competed. They had mini Olympics. It was fun and it was it, but it was fun. But it was competitive. And look, you felt very accomplished and rewarded if you won a medal or, back in my [00:22:00] day, they had field day and divided into teams.

It was very highly competitive. I don't know if they, it seems, yeah, and I, it seems like they have taken the competitive side out of it so that it's enjoyable for everybody. To me, part of sports is realizing that not everybody can be successful. Not everybody, there's not, we can't just give, we can't reward winners or say everybody's a winner just for participating.

[00:22:27] Mitch Lyons:  And even the, I'll take exception with that, but go ahead.  

[00:22:30] John Boruk:. I'm sorry. No, be, because we do that in grades now. Like whether it's in the classroom outside of the c. Like if you don't perform at a certain level you don't deserve a, like if you don't take the time to study, you don't deserve an A.

And so look, I understand that not every kid's gonna be a as athletically as athletically skilled. But you know what, that's, that was the great thing about field day is find a sport or find an activity that you're good at. Maybe it's on the team side. Maybe it's a tug of war. I don't know.

My point is [00:23:00] that at some point I think. The bigger concept is teaching everybody to work within a team, to support each other, to uplift each other because you are part of a team and if you happen to win that's great. It's almost secondary, I think at an elementary, middle school level.

To preach winning as the primary thing is not the way to go about it. To be part of a team, to instill teamwork to teach them the camaraderie, to teach them the skillset. That's where I think that things get lost.

[00:23:35] Mitch Lyons: You said a lot in that, and I'm I, you'll have to pardon my memory and go back, but one of the things that you said that really stood out is not everyone deserves a trophy. Yeah. Not everyone who doesn't try deserves a trophy. But think about break down unpeel. What happens when a person goes out to [00:24:00] perform on a field and then puts them out to gather, to try to do the best they can?

And in a lot of sports, 80% of the time you're failing, right? Yeah. But it, but unpeel, what that means for a young kid with a developing mind and evidently the research is that until 25, the mind is still developing firefighter and setting habits for itself, firefighter. So at that stage I could go with exceptions.

If you have asthma and you show up to play, you're, you'll get courage, right? Sure. If, yeah. But the point is that ev each individual is an individual with individual experiences that make doing this possible. Or impossible. I'll never forget my daughter was on the swim team going up in high school in front of everyone in a bathing suit.[00:25:00] 

That took guts just for participating and she wasn't a really good diet but she participated because on a personal level it took a lot. So I, what I'm saying is nobody thinks that anybody should get medals for everything, but we all deserve a pass. A pat the back are actually participating because many people in the population do.

Correct. And they're judged. Yes. And they leave. They leave sport early. Yes, because they're judged so harshly, not because they lost the game. It's what people think about them and say to them after they lost the game. That's what makes them do that. 

[00:25:39] John Boruk: I would agree. And then that's a good point, correct.

Because what we're not teaching, whether you're coaches or fellow teammates or your students or whoever's we're not teaching, I think on top of that, the right support system, we're not teaching the encouragement. We're not showing them what it takes to be a good teammate. What it, because I think you [00:26:00] are, you are what you breed.

If you can help. Kids if you can help them and motivate them to push them to get that extra 10% or 20% or whatever they can walk away not winning the event and still feel like a winner because they were encouraged or because they got the emotional and they got the mental support that they were looking for.

And I. Look that was when I was coaching a collection of kids in rec league basketball. I knew that I had a number of different skill levels that I was working with. But the point was, is let's all work together. Let's find what do you do well, what do you do well, and let's put all that together.

And at the end of the game, it didn't really matter that we won or lost. We actually won more games than we did lose. But is the fact that everybody contributed in their own way and. Whatever it was, we always focused on the positive. There was really no negative. 

[00:26:49] Mitch Lyons: So let's look at that.

Let's look at that positive that you just outlined that for us because it's a perfect example of what we could be [00:27:00] of learning. You said about really how do we do this? That question, how do we become a good teammate? How are we a good sport? How are we managing an emotion? How are we focused on what we're doing?

These are all skills that could be taught and are taught in the academic side and those that. Having incorporated social-emotional learning in schools, they are teaching these exact skills that apply to, with the sports relationship building. That's a topic, and I don't mean a separate class.

It's embedded. It's a comment. It's John just said something to you and how would you show him? That you're really interested in this topic because when you do that, he'll trust you more and like you more. And they say I could ask him a question about what he just said. [00:28:00] Exactly. And that actually has a name called Active Listening, and it's a great way to build a relationship with anyone.

The moment they start talking, you ask me questions. Yeah, see you, you're listening to people, you're respecting people. And of course that's one way, but these are skills that can be explicitly taught. Implicit is what is sports is now, and you're supposed to implicit learning and education is without causation or intention.

So if I watch you, if I see a tape, did I already give this example? 

[00:28:39] John Boruk: I'm not sure. 

[00:28:41] Mitch Lyons: I don't think so. Yeah. When you see a cake, you notice all of these things about it. The taste, the moistness of the bread itself, the the shape, all of these things, and you learn things from that.

But explicit learning is, I say, here's how to bake that cake. [00:29:00] And that's a big difference, obviously. Yeah. That is, yeah. That is admiring. Yeah. Same with sportsmanship. It goes in one ear and out the other because they haven't really taught it. And what does it entail? What kind of skills do you need to be a good sport and when, and even how is that actually defined?

Because it's just a. And all of the things that, that you know sport youth and school sports, by the way, I include school and youth. It's only college that's different. They're all young people. They're all developing at different levels. Youth doesn't have to be at just regular. Or the travel team or whatever.

It can, it it, they're all young people with developing minds, so I lumped them all together. Gotcha. But I just feel that I lost my train. 

[00:29:50] John Boruk: That's okay. No, yeah, we're. We're talking with Mitch Lyons a retired, I don't remember anything. Yeah, it's okay. With Mitch Lyons, a retired attorney, practiced law for over 25 [00:30:00] years.

You coached basketball. For over 25 years at every level, right? At the travel level, AAU high school, even division three college. But I think what it sounds like that, that your proudest work, at least when it comes through sports, is advocating in some of the initiatives through these non-profit organizations.

Getpsychsports.org and abusivecoaching.org in an effort to really change on how we have taught athletics through the public school system. So when you look at the work that you've accomplished, tell me some of the changes you were able to implement. I believe you, even through your work, were able to cause some legislation to be filed there in the state of Massachusetts.

[00:30:46] Mitch Lyons: Yes. The very interconnected get psych sports and and abusive coaching, but it's connected to a different organization than I started called the Social [00:31:00] Emotional Learning Alliance for Massachusetts. And that's where a lot of this dovetailing into Massachusetts legislation has come from my work in social emotional learning.

And one of the places that we've had the successes in the Boston Public Schools was a really good superintendent, Tommy Chang, who believed that this foundation for this learning. Yeah, of social emotional learning could be really exemplified in their sports programs. So if you wanted to create a model of a safe and supportive team of each other, you're, that could be a model for the whole school.

And in education there are what they call frameworks. For Safe and Supportive Schools and in Massachusetts we have that framework. And what does it look like? They also, the department. Our Department of Education, which here is Department of [00:32:00] Elementary and Secondary Education. 

They have written published guidelines for the implementation of a social-emotional learning curriculum in sports, excuse me. In schools we're asking them to do the same thing, but in on sports teams. In addition to formulate lessons about racism, misogyny and homophobia where sports, because of the closeness of that, you're with people that if you can break down these barriers between people, Give them the freedom to speak that it could also be a model of the way really that Nelson Mandela viewed in his sports, as a language that people speak, that young people speak, that they understand.

[00:32:54] John Boruk: Do you feel that though that sports, let's just say over the past two, three decades [00:33:00] has really has helped to break down some of those barriers as it pertains to racism? I look, for so many years, everybody talked. Not wanting a, a gay athlete on their team or because of homophobia, but it seems like that as culture has evolved and maybe our thought process has evolved, that we have seen more openness and we've embraced more acceptance than what we did back in the eighties or nineties, or even preceding that, haven't we?

From those standpoints of where we don't, we're not as misogynistic and we're not as racist and we're not as homophobic as, from a society at large as it pertains to sports that we are now more accepting of accepting of all types. 

[00:33:44] Mitch Lyons: I this is my view, we should congratulate ourselves on our progress, but the journey is just beginning.

We should congratulate ourselves that we are evolving. Small percentage at a [00:34:00] time. And within every community. So this is to be a part of, but not to think about what else has to be done. There's a people like one of the supporters of our legislation that you can find on under advocacy.

And Massachusetts, excuse me, and abusive coaching.org is rich, ick. The name you might not know, but he is somebody who is iconic in the world of sports. His father was the coach of the New York Kns. And the Knicks, like the Celtics had the first black players in the. I'm not sure exactly first, but they made a big point of it.

And he grew up in that atmosphere of, supporting in New York, New York City. And he was Lee led the sports boycott at against South Africa because of apart. [00:35:00] And he was kidnapped and the N word was nice into, onto his skin. Leaving scars. And this is one of the most, just a brave guy and regional.

He is in support of this legislation because it actually addresses sport. He is the guy who has the report guard for the NBA man, the NFL, the NHL, about their hiring practices. This really dovetails into these so social issues. Can I just digress for one second? There was a wonderful author and also the voice of most of the Ken Burns specials on tv.

Who he wrote Adams. 

[00:35:45] John Boruk: Oh yes. John Adams. Yes. I recently passed yeah. I'm drawing a blank. Yes. We're drawing a David yeah, I'm drawing a blank on his McCullough. David McCullough. 

[00:35:54] Mitch Lyons: David McCullough. We saw him speak it's world class story, makes. [00:36:00] History come alive, like it was a novel.

And he walked, we heard him speak at this university and he walks up, I assume there's no pity here in language, but he walks up to the microphone and goes right into it like a rock star, please his mouth. He says, you know what really pisses me off. So of course everyone in the room breaks out laughing and he has us right away and he says, people will say the good old days, they weren't good.

We've made a lot of progress, which acts your comment. And they aren't. The whole idea, the whole defense is you need to be, top out there and you have to, but that's not education, right? Education is nurturing and support and safe because when people are nervous and scared, they don't learn as bad how people are thinking, they don't learn as well, thinking there's a wonderful website called.[00:37:00] 

EI for emotional intelligence, so ei consortium.org out of Rutgers, it's the Center for Research on the Study of Emotional Intelligence in organizations and they have all of these studies there. That people can see. And one of them is about hiring practices. And if you hire asking questions that involve emotional intelligence, which includes relationship building and creating positive environments, et cetera, et cetera.

If you do that, those employees are much more likely to stay in that same job for a longer period of time, be more productive, and when they get sick, they come back to work faster. 

[00:37:46] John Boruk: Why not? Yeah. 

[00:37:47] Mitch Lyons: Fun place to be. So when I hear about negativity, about res leaving and Schwarz figures bemoaning this and also it's hard to find coaches.

[00:38:00] And when you ask why, it's because of a negative, all the negative activity that's being heaped upon them. You have to ask the question why not do the opposite on w d and then attract coaches. Coaches who want to have. With kids and a sport they love. And that to me at you track reps and you say how can you do that?

You have to, this has to come high. School is the perfect leverage point for everything. Because in high school, if they had a let's say a written curriculum based in science, 21st Century Science, which is the center of it, is creating safe and supportive teams you'd get rid of a lot of the negativity.

And people would have to model that behavior and or learn how to Yeah. 

[00:38:55] John Boruk: I would agree with you. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that emotional [00:39:00] intelligence is, it's a skilled trait that you don't find very often, whether it's in the workplace, whether it's on the playing field and it's desperately needed amongst our leaders, whether it's coaches, it's executives to maintain that that emotional intelligence, and I, and you're seeing that more and more today and how it's required.

One of the things that I did on your website was that you provided some research by the you can help me pronounce if I mispronounce this, is it, the Cagley Institute for School Voice and Aspirations.

[00:39:31] Mitch Lyons: I don't know how to pronounce it. Just saw it the way you did it. 

[00:39:34] John Boruk: Yeah, so it talked about research, about student voice in schools it says, it indicates that students who believe they have a voice in school are seven times more likely to be academically motivated than students who don't believe.

That they have a voice. And in doing so it increases the likelihood that students will experience self-worth engagement and purpose in school. And the more that EDU educators can give their students choice, control challenge, opportunities for collaboration, the [00:40:00] greater their motivation and the greater their engagement.

Will be. And I think that goes a long way because I think we're seeing maybe more so now than before, is that we take a, we're taking away that engagement. We're taking away the choice, and I think it's so vitally important that they're able to pro you, take away the processing. How are we ever going to expect them to get out into the real world and have life altering life managing decisions when they haven't had it growing up, whether it's been through sports, whether it's been in the classroom to, to challenge the status quo. We want them to use their minds. We want them to process things to where th they're well-informed and they can make better decisions.

You only experience this trial and error. Sometimes you, you make the decision you failed. It's, you sometimes you learn more through failing than you do your successes. So I think it's important. I think it's it's it's, whether it's in sports or whether it's in academics, to give students that [00:41:00] empowerment to, to make them feel empowered, but to know that they need to make these decisions and we need to find a way to get them better educated to make these decisions. 

[00:41:10] Mitch Lyons: And schools, some people it's in, in some areas people would say, oh, you're so soft on the students. What do we need them for? We'll just tell you what to learn. Facts, history, historic dates and English. And but there's so much more to human life than that.

And that's what the schools are finding out, that life is a series of events that can cause a great joy and also great trauma. You asked me earlier how I got involved. My, my daughter was emotionally abused in high school. Actually her whole team, she just seemed to be more of a focal point and as not really, she was there for 16 years.[00:42:00] 

And was so blatant at one point, so comfortable in the way she addressed the children of the parents who could hear of her at house time behind a curtain screaming You, you disgust me. You don't deserve to wear the uniform. And this was her reputation and everyone knew it. It's not so much important how we actually got rid of this woman.

We did. It's that she was hired immediately thereafter by another school. And it took 16 years to get that. A private, how do schools actually allow that to happen in it? I'm gonna tell you, you go into any high school and ask an athlete who's honest with you, who's the coach that you don't want to play for, they have one.

Oh yeah. Most times they have one. That's the person we're talking about. 

[00:42:57] John Boruk:. Yeah. That's a good. Yeah, [00:43:00] really good point. Yeah, I could everywhere. Yeah. And I could name a couple off the top of my head. But look, the bottom line is the majority of kids that ever engage in playing sports, 99% of them will never play once they, they leave high school.

And what you would like to do is you would like to pull those kids, and. Ask 'em one simple question was playing sports or was playing an extracurricular activity, whatever it is that you did at the time of which you did it, was it a positive experience for you? And you hope, you really hope that the overwhelming majority of those would say yes, because that's the power of what I think sports can do.

And if they, if the answer is no, then we really gotta get to the root of the problem to figure out why it is, and then find a way to, to change that. Change the. Change the people who are involved. And look we could start a whole new different segment as it pertains to how we're running, officials and referees and.

Out of the business because it, that is becoming an epidemic all in itself. And you want to talk about some [00:44:00] real mental and verbal abuse. I've seen it. You see it firsthand. But anyway they're 

[00:44:04] Mitch Lyons: all it's all real. But yeah, I just want to say that if your listeners want to see the legislation, which is very simple, published guidelines for the implementation of the social-emotional learning curriculum on sports teams.

That's what it requires, that there's no mandate for any school that they have to do it. But our feeling is like they did with social emotional learning, school districts will opt in. They will actually say, oh, there's an alternative. To my having no control of my coaches. It ends careers when one coach as a renegade coach does things that actually make the paper, but it ruins morale.

When a school district allows bad teaching slash coaching to occur in plain sight it's bad for. I spend my [00:45:00] whole day working to these students so that they can learn their best and then they get yelled at after school. Don't they deserve protection under the department events? Anyway that's what this bill is, was filed by the Senate Majority Leader in Massachusetts and jointly filed by a representative.

There. And I feel, it makes a lot of sense. As I said, the AIDS the one that immediately say, yeah, that happened to me. Yeah, it's widespread. It's widespread. And if you just actually asked around a lot, you'd see that Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yes. It could be corrected.

So here's the last point. The advantage of doing such a thing. You're actually teaching these skills in this incredibly wonderful environment of, of. You're teaching these skills and they will be better academically, better in their career readiness. Because [00:46:00] it's become an emphasis. I never finished my point.

If you communicate well, if students and coaches and parents are on the same page, literally, a page that says, this is what we teach in. Our whole focus is to make these things happen. And we have a zero tolerance from any negative yelling onto the field. You sincere all you want, but if you yell at someone, we are immediately gonna ask you to leave.

Don't do that to your own child. Because I've been on AAU teams where a kid says to me, my, my father's such an embarrassment. Yes. And that's from a 13 year old. And yeah. So the kids really have the right idea that the adults are running skew without any guidance.

And that's what a written curriculum would do. And that is reforming and remodeling athletics, which we did in [00:47:00] Boston Public Schools. If you put that in Google, Boston public schools athletics, you'll see a new mission and vision encompassing. They now need guidance. And what would that curriculum look like?

[00:47:15] John Boruk: Yeah. And that is it is worth if you get, if you have some time, you have some extra time, it's worth Googling. Check it out. I know Mitch, we've only scratched the surface and there's so much more, so many layers to all of this, but I really admire the work that you got started as founder and president of the two nonprofits.

We mentioned it before, get psyched sports.org. And abusive coaching.org. You've also had the social emotional Learning Alliance for Massachusetts that now is, has over 4,500 members to it. So what you've done there in the state of Massachusetts, great work and I'm glad that you're now able to pass that along to some other people and thank you so much for being on.

It's been very inform. I've always preached, we should listen to our elders, people who have been there [00:48:00] before who have experienced it, because they're always gonna know something that you haven't experienced. And that's why I always like to listen and take the advice from people in a position that have been around a little bit longer because they've seen more than me and they've heard more than me, and they've certainly experienced a whole lot more than what I've been through.

Mitch, thank you so much for being on. 

[00:48:17] Mitch Lyons: News Radio, all of that feeling is why you're an excellent interview. Oh because you believe, because you are interested in what people say, and I really thank you for this opportunity and enjoy the conversation greatly. Yeah. 

[00:48:30] John Boruk: All right. Mitch Lyons retired, retired lawyer, retired coach, 25 years in, in in both fields.

And hey, good luck in retirement. We'll have you back on at another, 

[00:48:41] Mitch Lyons: All right. Thanks so much. All right, 

[00:48:43] John Boruk: And thanks to all of you for listening. Another reminder, Hey, look if this is if you're coming back to us, we really appreciate it. Subscribe to us. You'll be notified every time we've got a new episode coming your way.

And check us out wherever you listen, whether that's on Spotify, apple Google. Amazon [00:49:00] Music, you name it, we're out there listed. And leave us a review. It helps us move up the charts, set up the rankings as well. And thanks for joining us. Hope you'll join us next time.